Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2009 17:43:54 GMT -1
Hayward's Heath in Sussex did not acquire its Heath appendage until 1607, spelt Hethe.
The Heathen Burials in Steyning was called Hetheneburiels in 1279 (Judith Glover).
Heathfield in Sussex was Hadfeld in the 12th century. Local pronounciation Heffle-
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Feb 23, 2009 18:05:22 GMT -1
Okay I'll ride this mad thread. Living near Betws-y-Coed I'm looking forward to Megli ruling on what's indicated by Betws Prayer house is the suggestion you most commonly hear, but sometimes 'Birch Grove' is offered. I used to like the idea that it in someway there was a connection between birch grove and prayer house - that they were both sacred places. (Birch groves would once have been rare in woods as they are strong light demanders requiring disturbance to get going). Perhaps the word for prayer house growing out of what a birch grove became. I'm sure it's entirely fanciful of me and almost certainly wrong- but its a nice thought!
|
|
|
Post by megli on Feb 23, 2009 18:39:47 GMT -1
Has to be the prayer-house one: medial -t- between vowels is quite alien to Welsh (except in circumstances where it has arisen secondarily from final -d + some other element beginning with h-, like the Welsh superlative ending -haf:, e.g., thus caled, 'hard', but 'caleTaf', 'hardest'.) The birch word has medial -d- (bedw(en)) and so this can't be the same thing. As I've said elsewhere, the thing about sound changes is that they are consistent and regular, so we'd expect **Bedws if the birch word was involved. (Though the -s wd be inexplicable, another reason to discount this potential etymology.) But the prayer-house one makes perfect linguistic sense, fits phologically (bed-hus, if borrowed into Welsh, would straightforwardly give betws) and works historically. There are in fact a number of 'english' place names in wales - Prestatyn is another (priests' town).
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Feb 23, 2009 22:09:04 GMT -1
Owen & Morgan in the recently published Dictionary of Place Names in Wales give 15 places with Betws as an element in the name - all are glossed as 'prayer house'. Taken, I've always understood, from Anglo-Saxon 'ge-bed' - to pray. The earliest recorded instance for Betws y Coed is 1254. The chapel was called 'Betws Wyrion Iddon' (the descendants or family (wyrion) of Iddon, who built the church. But Iddon is a Celtic name. So why give it an Anglo-Saxon title? There are place names beginning 'Eglwys -' (church) from the 13th cent. though those beginning 'Capel - ' seem to be later. Was Betws the standard form in an earlier period? Have to check GPC tomorrow.
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Feb 24, 2009 9:09:14 GMT -1
Thanks for that Megli.
Always better to know the reality!
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Feb 24, 2009 9:37:38 GMT -1
Hi Heron
If you have a spare minute could you look up the history of the names of Carnedd Llywelyn in Owen and Morgan's book for me?
I'd love to know what their older names were - i.e. pre 13th century. A long time ago I was told by an old poet farmer that he had a vague memory of being told Carnedd LLewelyn (spelling the ordnance survey use) was once called Cadair Idwal - which would fit well with some other Giant stories of the Carneddau (i.e. Fflur a Ffrancon).
Many thanks!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 13:11:48 GMT -1
I have received comfirmation of the semantic shift of the meaning of coed to wood in modern Welsh.
I simply did not know that this had occurred.
|
|
|
Post by Tegernacus on Feb 24, 2009 14:08:34 GMT -1
Perseus, Megli teaches this stuff at a top university. If he says something means something or xxx shift occured then you can be 99% sure that it did. It doesn't hurt to get a second opinion, of course, but you're talking to someone at the top of their field, so it isn't necessary. We (CF, Brython, paganism, Celtic Studies, Linguistics, the UK, the world) are lucky and blessed to have such people around.
|
|
|
Post by dreamguardian on Feb 24, 2009 15:15:20 GMT -1
Perseus, Megli teaches this stuff at a top university. If he says something means something or xxx shift occured then you can be 99% sure that it did. ... ...you're talking to someone at the top of their field, so it isn't necessary. We (CF, Brython, paganism, Celtic Studies, Linguistics, the UK, the world) are lucky and blessed to have such people around. Thats the beauty of CF
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 18:25:05 GMT -1
Perseus, Megli teaches this stuff at a top university. If he says something means something or xxx shift occured then you can be 99% sure that it did. It doesn't hurt to get a second opinion, of course, but you're talking to someone at the top of their field, so it isn't necessary. We (CF, Brython, paganism, Celtic Studies, Linguistics, the UK, the world) are lucky and blessed to have such people around. I believe you. Thanks Megli. Asking questions gets answers, which all I was doing. I may have used inductive logic.
|
|
|
Post by megli on Feb 24, 2009 20:45:18 GMT -1
Gawd! my head will explode!
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Feb 24, 2009 20:59:16 GMT -1
Hi Heron If you have a spare minute could you look up the history of the names of Carnedd Llywelyn in Owen and Morgan's book for me? I'd love to know what their older names were - i.e. pre 13th century. A long time ago I was told by an old poet farmer that he had a vague memory of being told Carnedd LLewelyn (spelling the ordnance survey use) was once called Cadair Idwal - which would fit well with some other Giant stories of the Carneddau (i.e. Fflur a Ffrancon). Many thanks! With pleasure Stephen. They give 'Cairn of Llywelyn' as the meaning and say it is believed to commemorate Llywelyn ap Iorwerth [Llywelyn Fawr]who died in 1240 and whose son is commemorated in Carnedd Dafydd. But the earliest recorded use they give for either name is 1700 so it might well have been known as Cadair Idwal before that, though they don't mention it. I'd love to know about the giants too!
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Feb 24, 2009 21:19:14 GMT -1
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Feb 24, 2009 21:31:32 GMT -1
At that price you'll probably stay interested for a while yet!
Might see if I can't find it an a library though
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 9:43:14 GMT -1
www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=2216&pc=9Interesting amazon aren't charging more than the publishers, looks a good book and I think it is very likely you could find it on a inter-library loan. Having said that a lot of Mellen books look good as well.... shouldn't have looked should I?
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Mar 8, 2009 17:29:50 GMT -1
I managed to track this down in a library. It's more of a reference book than anything else, with entries for places which giants are associated with and a bit about each one. The appendix containing the text and translation of Sion Dafydd Rhys' thesis from his 16th-century defence of Geoffrey of Monmouth's "Historia" is fascinating. He apparently asserts against the rationalists of his day that giants certainly did once inhabit Wales. Something I'll have to get round to reading properly. The place index threw up a few interesting tid bits even on a perfunctory browse. I was particularly taken by the entry on the giantess of Pennant Melangell which was of special interest to me - and my reflections on this are the subject of my current blog (link below).
|
|
|
Post by megli on Mar 8, 2009 18:06:14 GMT -1
Isn't SDR just the best?!
|
|