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Post by potia on Aug 21, 2009 11:09:27 GMT -1
I'd like to encourage a discussion of the features of different types of trances states and here seems to be the logical place to me for that to take place Recently I have had some hypnotherapy (just a couple of sessions) the aim of which was to help me pass a driving test. I passed as it happens but I'm not sure how much of that is due to the hypnotherapy, persistence or medication for reducing anxiety. What I am interested in talking about are the sensations I experienced while in the sessions and comparing them with sensations expereinced in other situations. In the hypnotherapy sessions I was seated, eyes closed, and very relaxed but aware of sounds around me. My body felt incredibly heavy but not uncomfortable. I felt aware mentally to the extent that I felt able to mentally argue with some of the statements the hypnotherapist made accepting some as they were, modifyinig others and even rejecting a few. The physical relaxation I experienced was very strong. Not only did my body feel incredibly heavy but I felt unable to even twitch my fingers or stretch until I had come out of this trance state. Once I was able to move again I felt almost euphoric for a few moments and then relaxed and happy. I've been given information and instructions on achieving this state as a self hypnosis tool and while I have tried it a couple of times the state I have achieved is not nearly as deep as that experienced in the hypnotherapy session. I have had a couple of expereinces which took place in more ritual contexts where I believe I was channelling or hosting another presence. The sensations during these experiences seem quite different to those I experienced in the hypnotherapy sessions from my perspective. In one situation during a development circle I seemed to have made contact with the spirit of an old man, a wise man or even druid if you will. I was relaxed and seated during this incident with my eyes were open. My limbs did not feel heavy in any way although I did start to shake and twitch in a way I had absolutely no control over - this was particularly strong in my legs. I felt that the presence wanted to speak both to myself and to the others present - I can't remember what I said as it's a few years ago now. Nothing amazing in any way and in fact it's possible that what I said could have come from my subconcious and what I knew of those present. Afterwards I felt somewhat tired and drained. I do feel however that I unexpectedly made contact with someone during that experience. In another situation during a ritual I consiously invoked the presence of the being known to me as the Cailleach. While I had prepared for this as best as I could I had no idea what sort of result I might get if any. For this I was standing in a ritual circle with quite a few others. Some I knew well, others were with us for the first time. My body felt perfectly normal duing this experience but I had a sense of being one step removed from what was taking place. It was as if I was an observer in a way. I could feel and move normally but at the same time everything seemed more distant. As the Cailleach was thanked I felt as if her presence was leaving me and I started to feel more connected to those around me again. It's very hard to explain. Again this experience left me feeling tired and a bit drained. Anyway, the above describe what for me have been three very different experiences both mentally and physically. I may have been in trance states to some extent for all three but as I know very little about such states I'm not really sure. I'd like to hear from those who know more about such states and others who have experienced similar things. The reason I'd like to discuss these things here is to see if others think there might be a place for the more religious of such experiences (with appropriate cautions, guidance and supports) in future community rituals.
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Post by Adam on Aug 21, 2009 11:42:31 GMT -1
oooh... now you're on my territory ;D (and I think at least one other here IIRC)...
I use trance a lot... I'm an NLP master practitioner (a title which is so much bollocks, but I do enjoy NLP when taken out of the cult context that has grown up around it) and have used NLP and hypnosis/trancework in therapeutic settings within hospital and privately, as well as in my own personal and spiritual development.
There are a number of strategies you can use for self induced trance... some may be more effective for you personally than others... I like one called the Betty Erickson Self Induction (a search on interweb should give you a taste and I do have an mp3 I can let you have that "trains" you in the strategy.
I do believe that trance ties in with ritual, because I believe that trance is a means whereby we can change the boundaries of our identity and extend awareness into something beyond the appearance of perfect continence between I and not I... bugger... getting convoluted... trance is a route to the transpersonal... we can change the limits of what "I" identify as.
Biggest problem with trance in this context is suggestion... it is perfectly possible to create experiences which can make the group leader (if such exists) a very powerful and magical figure... charisma is in part a trance phenomon in my book, and great oratory employs language patterns used to induce trance... but taken with self awareness, knowledge and discipline, it is a powerful tool... I look forward to an ensuing conversation :-)
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Post by potia on Aug 21, 2009 12:39:35 GMT -1
I use trance a lot... I'm an NLP master practitioner (a title which is so much bollocks, but I do enjoy NLP when taken out of the cult context that has grown up around it) and have used NLP and hypnosis/trancework in therapeutic settings within hospital and privately, as well as in my own personal and spiritual development. Am I correct is thinking NLP is Neurolinguistic programming? Again it's not something I know much about. Care to give a summary or overview for those of us that don't know much about it?
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Post by Adam on Aug 21, 2009 13:17:30 GMT -1
ye gods... where to start ;D First of all... NLP came out of the whole personal development movement in the 70's eraly 80's... my take on it is very personal and likely to offend many that I regard as still being in "the cult"... it is guilt of using pseudo-scientific language whilst remaining unverifiable to standard scientific paradigms. I say that because very often any conversation about NLP devolves into NLP apologism. NLP has been described as a methodolgy (modeling) that leaves behind a trail of applications. Modeling is the process of discovering what is that one person does (usually when demonstrating some for excellence) in such a way that it can be replicated by others. Other than that there really is nothing new in NLP... the originators modelled skilled therapists (Virginia Satir, Milton Erickson, Fritz Perls and others) and derived a set of beliefs that it is regarded as being useful to hold when doing therapeutic work (known as the presuppositions of NLP) and a language model... one of precision (the Metamodel of language) and one, it's inverse, of artful vagueness (the Milton Model) Of most interest to me is the principle of submodalities... NLP practitioners look to the subjective experience, but we are not interested in the content of said experience, but the process... Every experience is experienced through the various physical senses... we do not have direct experience of the thing itself, but an internal representation (which is also sensory in nature)... a submodality is the "how" of your internal representations... are they big or small, colour or B/W, light dark and so on (those just some visual ones btw)... the contention of NLP is that meaning of an experience for an individual is encoded in the submodality... change the key submodalities, and you change the meaning Also the analysis of language patterns... in latter years NLP practitioners have got very interested in the "persuasion" market... but at root, all the language skills are either hypnotic (Milton) or about extracting what is hidden and directing people toward precision (Meta) Bah... start here www.nlpinfo.com/intro/ntr1.html , much better ;D But be warned... on the map were you find NLP, it will be marked "here be oily snakes"
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 21, 2009 15:09:07 GMT -1
When I have more time, I will go into a bit more detail. I've performed on many occassion as a stage hypnotist as well usinhg hypnosis for therapy.
From my experience, there is no 'feeling' of or in hypnosis but these sensations can be intensified. It's best described as a mood. thats why you probably weren't sure if you were hypnotized or not Potia. Relaxation is not necessary in order to be hypnotised, I've worked in noisy rugby clubs with a crap PA & still had many volunteers in deep hypnosis in just a couple of minutes. It shouldn't take much longer than that.
The key is the motivation & expectation.
The hypnotic phenomena & the power of suggestion IS very real. It is quite easy to intensify & use suggestion very quickly & effectively.
There are many factors that can effect the experience & I would add just a word of caution as to how easy it could be to confuse 'spiritual' & self-delusion' experiences as previously stated elsewhere.
I need a bit more time to explain properly.
Rob
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Post by potia on Aug 21, 2009 18:17:23 GMT -1
Hi Rob I look forward to hearing more I'd also be interested in what sort of things you (and anyone else for that matter) might expect to see in someone who has unwittingly been hypnotised either by themselves or someone else.
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Post by Adam on Aug 21, 2009 19:36:18 GMT -1
I'd also be interested in what sort of things you (and anyone else for that matter) might expect to see in someone who has unwittingly been hypnotised either by themselves or someone else. Step outside and look around you :-( Unquestioning belief with no foundation, not amenable to logic and dissuasion?
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 22, 2009 6:09:45 GMT -1
Hi Rob I look forward to hearing more I'd also be interested in what sort of things you (and anyone else for that matter) might expect to see in someone who has unwittingly been hypnotised either by themselves or someone else. The word unwittingly can give the impression of deceit. But thats not necessarly true. Hypnosis is simply suggestion, the power of. There's a huge industry out there now, as Adam has ilustrated, thats grown with numerous definitions. For me, it's simply the by-passing of the critical factor. The critical factor is the bit thats working now as you read my words, process them & make a judgement. This never goes away but can become passive. It's when it's passive, a suggestion can be accepted without question. There's no need for long drawn out inductions & special formula's. This can be done very quickly & with minimal words. Sometimes I think that there are are those that assume 'in trance' believe it's a magical/mysterious sensation, that you go 'under' some sort of spell. My experience taught that this not true. there are certain subtle signs given by someone that an skilled eye will notice, to indicate that a person or group are in 'trance'. There are also signs of someone who has re-orientated themselves afterwards too. I know there are teachers of varried groups here & they will have their students (young or old) in trance on many occassion! Having attended/witnessed many a pagan meditation & listened & watched many a persons physical & verbal responses, it's obvious to me who's talking bollocks or not. I'm not for one minute suggesting that anyones/everybody's spiritual experiences are just figments of the imagination. To do so would render these gifts as nothing which would offend & insult the Gods. There have been moments of such clarity in my life that cannot be dismissed as purely imaginative or coincidence. I'm just saying that we should be cautious & be aware of UPG. Our perception & imaginations are extremely powerful and for good reason. The key is motivation, belief and most importantly expectation. Under these circumstances, it's possible that our perception can be excited & intensified so much, that we can be convinced the whole experience is real & historical.
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Post by potia on Aug 22, 2009 8:27:11 GMT -1
This is fascinating thanks. From the information both Adam and Rob have given I think I have probably been in trance states much more than I had realised which I finbd vey interesting.
I'm still not sure if the experiences in ritual contexts that I briefly described above were self hypnosis or not but it is apparent to me that they could have been. They could also have been something more. Either way they were experiences that have helped me to learn and develop.
If some form of ritual trance is ever used in Brython rituals in the future what sort of things would you hope to see included to safeguard participants from the wrong sort of manipulation?
I would imagine that even an open acknowledgement that the ritual may include trance states would help? If it was for something like trying to contact spirit or deity directly by an individual than I would think that person would need to be a volunteer and others there need to be comfortable with the idea of what might take place if successful.
Perhaps also advice that anything said or done by a person in such a trance should be considered carefully and not simply accepted?
For the person entering the trance state someone to monitor them and help them come out of it fully?
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 22, 2009 14:45:18 GMT -1
This is fascinating thanks. From the information both Adam and Rob have given I think I have probably been in trance states much more than I had realised which I finbd vey interesting. I'm still not sure if the experiences in ritual contexts that I briefly described above were self hypnosis or not but it is apparent to me that they could have been. They could also have been something more. Either way they were experiences that have helped me to learn and develop. If some form of ritual trance is ever used in Brython rituals in the future what sort of things would you hope to see included to safeguard participants from the wrong sort of manipulation? Manipulation is a strong statement, Potia but I think I know what you mean. An appreciation of how suggestion operates is important. I'm personally not that comfortable with the idea, not because of ethics or fear of the supernatural but rather that too many factors could influence such a rite. If the Gods wish to commune to us as a group, I'm sure they will. If some members wanted to proceed, maybe a request to the Gods at an early stage, that if they deem it important to make known some gnosis that they could use a member present at some point at the gathering. Then perhaps see what happens. Rather than a big build up to the event prior to the gathering, someone volunteering and a rite performed. I think this may lead to complications Most definately
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Post by redraven on Aug 22, 2009 18:56:16 GMT -1
For whose benefit would such an act be for? If we take it that the majority of Gods held a human form at some time in history, why would they need to reinhabit human form, even temporarily? I can't see why such a god would benefit from temporarily inhabiting human form again, I would question such an act. In times gone by, especially in shamanic cultures, with a more direct experience of Gods, I can see that it would be a (possibly) relevant experience, but I can't see it being that relevant today. (I'm not doubting your experiences here, Potia, it may be that my own preference of information exchange being as equal as possible, with the results being examined at the end with the opportunity for acceptance or rejection being available, may not make me the best person to comment upon the idea's you are raising here. However, I think my question is valid in the context of this thread.)
RR
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Post by potia on Aug 22, 2009 19:54:42 GMT -1
For whose benefit would such an act be for? If we take it that the majority of Gods held a human form at some time in history, why would they need to reinhabit human form, even temporarily? If some sort of rite to invoke the presence of a deity was done at some stage in the future I would imagine it would be for the benefit of those present at the rite. I personally do not think that the majority of gods held a human form at some time in history. I think some did and others have grown out of spirits tied to natural features - River deities being an example of the later. As to what would the deity or spirit gain from temporarily joining with a human spirit I expect it would depend on the individuals concerned. It maybe that the deity would gain the ability to better communicate something to a group or perhaps to develop a stronger connection with the individual hosting them. It maybe something that could give them pleasure - I don't know. I would imagine that just as there could be many reasons one of us for taking part or not taking part in such a rite there could be many reasons any particular deity would choose to become involved too.
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Post by redraven on Aug 22, 2009 20:18:43 GMT -1
It may be worth studying the spiritualist point of view on this, there are some very interesting perspectives, although they are acreditted to beings who did, at some point, inhabit human form. Interestingly, they don't tend to have contact that much, with what could be viewed as deity, neo-shamans would probably be a better perspective on that particular area. Participation, I suppose, would be dependent upon a purely individualist perspective, as to whether one would want to do involve one's self. Focussed group intention can be a very powerful thing and, as you have suggested, trust between group members would be very important.
RR
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 23, 2009 6:41:53 GMT -1
I'm inclined to agree with RR on this. Again, I'm not in a position to judge others experience or that a God wouldn't use a human host. The are so many factors involved. RR mentioned spiritualism so it's worth mentioning this point. Houdini examined extensively & exposed a lot if spiritualism. His encounters with the author Conan Doyle are well documented.
Also, in modern times Derren Brown. His mimmicking of all such phenomena is startling. Look out for his series 'Messiah' which perfectly illustrates this as well as his victorian meduimship. BTW He is an ex born again christian & an evangelical atheist.
He always states he doesn't use hypnosis in his shows (Legal license reasons) but if you see his TV shows or even better, get to see him live. You will witness a masterclass in the art of suggestion.
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Post by Lee on Aug 23, 2009 8:52:14 GMT -1
the benefit would be for both the god and the people. on one hand those assembled have first hand interaction with thier gods - think of it being akin to going from internet only interaction to meeting up in person - and the god gets an opportunity to communicate with us and convey whatever they want.
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Post by megli on Aug 23, 2009 9:25:31 GMT -1
In both santeria and vodoun the gods inhabit human hosts all the time in ritual. Such hosts are called 'horses' in Vodoun and 'yawos' (brides) in Santeria---the priest is the 'bride' of the deity even if the deity is female and the priest male. Women and gay men are meant to be especially good at it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrCFtojoy7QThis is candomble ritual (Brazillian yoruba-based religion, similar to Santeria) in which you can hear a chappie talking about the drumming rhythms that call the deities. Note that in Yoruba beliefs the gods are all deified mortals, including ones like river deities. At the same time, they are also the principles of creation, the fragments of the one God, much like the sephiroth on the tree of life in Kabala. In the video you see two deities embodied in worshippers---both deities are male and yet the possessed people are female in both cases. When you become possessed, you're led off and dressed in colours and accoutrements which belong to your orisha, so the women hunched over in big white dresses are in white because that's the colour of Oxala, the oldest orixa ('deity'), and bent over because he is very old. Here's one of a man (I think) possessed by Oya, the female orixa of wind and tempests, who you can see with her irukes, or horse-hail flails. www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSKa74ir8MgI doubt very much that Brythonic religion had anything much like this.
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Post by Lee on Aug 23, 2009 10:28:28 GMT -1
thats one of the things i love about the various african disapora religions; the gatherings have a wonderful sense of community celebration and an immediacy of interaction with their 'gods', the gods are there, amongst them and being part of the celebration with them.
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 23, 2009 10:54:30 GMT -1
... I doubt very much that Brythonic religion had anything much like this. Any particular reason, Megli?
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Post by megli on Aug 23, 2009 13:32:23 GMT -1
because there wasnt a pantheon in the same way, and we have no record of anything remotely like it from the indo-European world.
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