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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 23, 2009 14:00:08 GMT -1
because there wasnt a pantheon in the same way, and we have no record of anything remotely like it from the indo-European world. Do you therefore think it appropriate to pursue such a practice thats been proposed for Clas Brython? I'd be interested in your opinion on the ancient Brython pantheon but realise that should be on a seperate thread, if it's not already. Thanks, Rob
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Post by Adam on Aug 23, 2009 14:02:01 GMT -1
I would echo Rob's caution about the deliberate use of trance states in ritual (though all ritual IMO has a trance element, through a combination of the trance loops described below and operant conditioning)
It's also worth IMO distinguishing between suggestion (which as Rob says, bypasses the critical ability) and the means by which suggestion is "implanted"... good stage performers are suggestors par excellence and know that complex trance induction is simply not necessary to effect hypnotic phenomenon. In fact, no formal induction is needed (there was at least one performer who claimed to hypnotise his subjects "psychically"... the induction as such was all in the build up to the show, in the form of building expectation as Rob has mentioned)
Trance itself is broader than hypnosis... Dennis Weir has an interesting (if quite mathematical) treatment of trance. Dennis' background is meditation, specifically TM, but his interest covers all trance experience (which he pretty much ascribes as the norm, one way or another). To Dennis, a trance is a dissociative state induced by the presence of a trance loop. Trance loops are cognitive phenomena characterised by a repeated set of finite cognitive "objects" (thoughts, feelings or sensations). Trance is characterised by a) the sort of loops that generate it and b) the disabling of specific cognitive functions. Loops can be primary or secondary (a feedback loop that exists between the trance state and the trance generating loop, which serves to stabilise the trance).
In Dennis' model, the primary trance types are 1. Meditative (the contents of the primary trance generating loop are all internal to the person) 2. Hypnotic (some or all of the contents of the primary trance generating loop are external to the person)
He also describe Centric trance, addictive trance, charismatic trance and more and is, in my opinion, the most far reaching model for discussing the full extent of the trance experience. Centric trance is the area of caution I would be concerned about, as these sort of perseverant trance states are the ones whereby charismatic leaders alter the perceptions of reality of large groups of people. Think David Koresh.
That said, all descriptions of hypnosis and trance are hotly debated with little consensus in the scientific literature. As a matter of principle, I would suggest (sic) that anyone wishing to explore trance in a spiritual setting educate themselves as to the various models and descriptions as well as gain some personal experience of the various manifestations of these states.
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Post by potia on Aug 23, 2009 18:28:26 GMT -1
As a matter of principle, I would suggest (sic) that anyone wishing to explore trance in a spiritual setting educate themselves as to the various models and descriptions as well as gain some personal experience of the various manifestations of these states. I'm not sure if I want to explore trance further or not but I'd certainly like to learn more about it so can you recommend any particular articles/websites/books for further reading?
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Post by potia on Aug 23, 2009 21:16:16 GMT -1
In both santeria and vodoun the gods inhabit human hosts all the time in ritual. Such hosts are called 'horses' in Vodoun and 'yawos' (brides) in Santeria---the priest is the 'bride' of the deity even if the deity is female and the priest male. Women and gay men are meant to be especially good at it. Love the clips. I find it very interesting that it is women and gay men that especially good at this. In the heathen practice of Seidr I understand that it was usually practiced by women and men doing it were considered odd. If I remember correctly the term used is "ergi" and is also applied to gay men. I think the majority of spiritulist mediums are women too.
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Post by Lee on Aug 23, 2009 21:37:54 GMT -1
i am going to refresh myself of Seidr and will get back on this
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 24, 2009 6:39:55 GMT -1
It's also worth IMO distinguishing between suggestion (which as Rob says, bypasses the critical ability) and the means by which suggestion is "implanted"... good stage performers are suggestors par excellence and know that complex trance induction is simply not necessary to effect hypnotic phenomenon. In fact, no formal induction is needed (there was at least one performer who claimed to hypnotise his subjects "psychically"... the induction as such was all in the build up to the show, in the form of building expectation as Rob has mentioned) Most volunteers as they walk on stage are already 'in trance', although unaware. Even the ones that come up to prove it's nonsense. When I've exchanged a glance with them, there's a defining moment of realisation for them & they begin to think maybe they can be hypnotised (expectation!!) Was the performer you mentioned Eddie Burke, Adam? Non verbal inductions employ the use of certain methods , including stage whispers, which is giving suggestion 'off mike' so that only the volunteers can hear & not the audience. A trick of the trade I've used on many occasion to ham up a good routine. Also, it's worth mentioning that it's a license & legal loop-hole not to mention the 'Hypnosis or trance' words as a performer.
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Post by Adam on Aug 24, 2009 8:37:26 GMT -1
As a matter of principle, I would suggest (sic) that anyone wishing to explore trance in a spiritual setting educate themselves as to the various models and descriptions as well as gain some personal experience of the various manifestations of these states. I'm not sure if I want to explore trance further or not but I'd certainly like to learn more about it so can you recommend any particular articles/websites/books for further reading? From an NLP point of view, there is Trance-formations (Richard Bandler and John Grinder)... a true classic... a little linguistically technical in places but not to the point of illegibility. Out of print and I've seen copies go for £60 plus on ebay, but I have found copies at reasonable prices in 2nd hand bookshops and seen it libraries. There is also "Time for a Change" (Richard Bandler again). "Monsters and Magical Sticks: Or, There's No Such Thing as Hypnosis" by Steven Heller also gets some very good press... I've not read it, but people I have a lot of respect for highly recommend it and some say it beats Trance-formations hands down as a useful and user friendly book Amazon.co.uk review Damn... I'm going to have to get it now :-) Dennis Wier's self published Trance: form Magic to Technology is excellent, but highly technical in its description and needs a lot of work to extract the necessary :-) though I believe his Way of Trance is supposed to be more accessible
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Post by Adam on Aug 24, 2009 8:45:38 GMT -1
Was the performer you mentioned Eddie Burke, Adam? Non verbal inductions employ the use of certain methods , including stage whispers, which is giving suggestion 'off mike' so that only the volunteers can hear & not the audience. A trick of the trade I've used on many occasion to ham up a good routine. I don't recall, but I don't think so... it dated from the old music hall stage magician performances, and all the induction (expectation building) was done via the performance billing, images on posters etc and the on-stage preamble, so that when the performer placed his fingers on his temple and turned his gaze, Svengali-like, to the subject, they would supposedly just go under without a word directed toward them personally :-) Easily done, I'm sure but has that Derren feel to it (I do like Derren... the times I've sat on NLP forums trying to persuade NLPers that he is a stage magician, and he hasn't taken some NLP principle to Bene Gesserit extremes... but some people sooo want to believe... there are still people who don't believe he can do what he does if he isn't psychic )
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Post by yggwaldir on Aug 24, 2009 10:31:23 GMT -1
"ergi" is a somewhat obscure term, usually taken to mean perverted/unmanly. Seidhr was indeed mainly practiced by women, but even then it was seen as not Honorable. Practitioners of what we would call 'magic' were normally situated on the fringe of society (with the possible exception of hamr, and a few seidh-practicing queens in the sagas). It is furthermore difficult to know what seidh originally was, as there are relatively few references to it in lore. Most contemporary practice is a norse-flavored rip-off of wicca and shamanism.
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Post by littleraven on Aug 24, 2009 11:02:32 GMT -1
because there wasnt a pantheon in the same way, and we have no record of anything remotely like it from the indo-European world. Thing is, given the frequency of possessive type practice in ancestor worshipping societies, in our context I think this is a prime candidate for the 'absence of evidence ..' scenario. Situations of calling to the spirits are fairly well attested in the literature, it seems a natural, if somewhat extreme ultimate that spirits would be invited to inhabit the living.
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 24, 2009 11:19:44 GMT -1
Was the performer you mentioned Eddie Burke, Adam? . I don't recall, but I don't think so... it dated from the old music hall stage magician performances and all the induction (expectation building) was done via the performance billing, images on posters etc and the on-stage preamble, so that when the performer placed his fingers on his temple and turned his gaze, Svengali-like, to the subject, they would supposedly just go under without a word directed toward them personally :-) Easily done, I'm sure Post hypnotic suggestion You're right. He's an evangelical athiest & does his stuff to PROVE there's no such thing as psycic ability. His very first book called 'Pure effect' (Out of print but there are copies around)reveals everything, including his mysogany!! He a 1st class hypnotist (he'll shirk that title & riggle from it) & a very stylish magician. He's cool!!
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Post by megli on Aug 24, 2009 12:21:07 GMT -1
because there wasnt a pantheon in the same way, and we have no record of anything remotely like it from the indo-European world. Thing is, given the frequency of possessive type practice in ancestor worshipping societies, in our context I think this is a prime candidate for the 'absence of evidence ..' scenario. Situations of calling to the spirits are fairly well attested in the literature, it seems a natural, if somewhat extreme ultimate that spirits would be invited to inhabit the living. I doubt it, i must say. there's no evidence the ancient brits ate curries, but that doesnt make it likely. Given the nature of ntheir religion, it is highly improbable. I wdn't be surprised by prophet/esses though.
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Post by littleraven on Aug 24, 2009 14:17:27 GMT -1
Thing is, given the frequency of possessive type practice in ancestor worshipping societies, in our context I think this is a prime candidate for the 'absence of evidence ..' scenario. Situations of calling to the spirits are fairly well attested in the literature, it seems a natural, if somewhat extreme ultimate that spirits would be invited to inhabit the living. I doubt it, i must say. there's no evidence the ancient brits ate curries, but that doesnt make it likely. Given the nature of ntheir religion, it is highly improbable. I wdn't be surprised by prophet/esses though. Damn. That's the idea for the 'Sacred Korma' out the window then (but then, perhaps we could justify it through a Vedic connection ) I'm not entertaining the idea that it would have been common, or that anyone could have done it. But as you suggest with prophet/ess, the idea of some people who did do it seems a possibility to me. You'll have to expand a little on 'highly improbable' to dissuade me on that.
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Post by megli on Aug 24, 2009 14:41:12 GMT -1
Well, it falls into the category of something a) alien to indo-european religion, of which the celtic peoples were a subset, and as such demonstrably inherited a lot of ancient I-E religious stuff; and b) there's no *evidence* they did anything like being possessed by gods in the vodou/santeria way. There's no evidence that the druids chanted litanies to the gods in temples, for example, but given that that's a common thing in religious practice in I-E society it's not unreasonable to imagine they did. But trance possession by a deity would be highly unusual in terms of the deepest layer of their cultural background AND no evidence. So thus it's improbable. The 'absence of evidence' thing is useless--of course the druids fanned their sacred temple quail with fans made out of swans' wings, and poured honey onto the heads of cult statues, and wore green buskins, as we all know.
What? you say there's no evidence? Well, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!.....etc.
Basically, this vodou thing---common possession by deities of priests as a major part of ritual--is very, very african. It doesn't 'gel' with what we know of the ancient celts and their religous life. There may have been oracles---that's possible---but druids being possessed by taranis or rigantona? nah.
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Post by redraven on Aug 24, 2009 15:44:11 GMT -1
I'm not sure if I want to explore trance further or not but I'd certainly like to learn more about it so can you recommend any particular articles/websites/books for further reading? Potia, I have become aware that some of my postings here, and elsewhere recently, may have appeared to be taking a somewhat, possibly perceived hostile tone. They are not, in any way, hostile to you or anyone else, it's just that I appear to hold some, somewhat forthright views on these particular subjects. RR
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Post by yggwaldir on Aug 24, 2009 15:45:41 GMT -1
I have yet to encounter an IE-oracle that is possessed by any god/spirit. As a rule they listen to the whispering of the gods or their messengers (e.g. the wind in the trees, the sound of crows, etc.); from the völva of Greenland to the oracles of Greece. At least, that is my understanding of it.
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 24, 2009 17:36:16 GMT -1
Damn. That's the idea for the 'Sacred Korma' out the window LOL ;D
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Post by Lee on Aug 24, 2009 18:22:57 GMT -1
trance state communication with the 'other' is fairly widespread, if i think correctly then it is the kind of thing that happens in shamanic cultures and germanic-y ones too - im thinking seidr here. now, the thing that has gotten inot my head is that seidr work sounds awfully familiar to the description of the awenyddion (thrash about a bit and then make prophecy) though whether it is a genuine practice is another matter.
might it be that awenyddion is a leftover from practices such as trance mediums and shamanic practice?
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Post by potia on Aug 24, 2009 19:57:33 GMT -1
Potia, I have become aware that some of my postings here, and elsewhere recently, may have appeared to be taking a somewhat, possibly perceived hostile tone. They are not, in any way, hostile to you or anyone else, it's just that I appear to hold some, somewhat forthright views on these particular subjects. RR RR I hadn't noticed anything hostile myself. Even if I had I wouldn't have taken it personally. I can be pretty blunt myself sometimes
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