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Post by littleraven on Aug 27, 2009 17:53:24 GMT -1
Is this referring to the pepper we know and use, ie black pepper? If so, it was an import and a very expensive one at that. I don't see them talking about an everyday item here, but a demonstration of the richness of the kitchens' lord. Exactly---but it's a lovely detail, and evocation oif life. And as for the laws---chock full of everday items. And the fact that they rcorded stories---fiction!---at all shows that vellum was not limited to solely utilitarian purposes. Yes it is a lovely detail, it's wonderfully evocative of what the kitchen may have been like if you were there. But I still think it's a detail with a purpose
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Post by megli on Aug 27, 2009 18:59:01 GMT -1
A valid point!
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Post by Adam on Aug 30, 2009 10:18:13 GMT -1
And all this is a bit strange anyway, cos as the awenydd thing--not to mention things like the vates etc of classical accounts and their insular celtic cognates---shows, they deffo DID HAVE trances in which people prophesied, historically attested, in Wales. Why don't we give that a practical try before we start beggaring about with african-style possession?! ;D I'm up for it if anyone else is... impersonal trance for divination and prophesy has a number of advantages as far as I can see, in that its validity or otherwise is attested by the community rather than the individual, and so doesn't run the same risks of self delusion and grandeur, nor does it carry the potential mental health risks of inviting spirit possession IMO (a task that I would understand as requiring significant training and selection) I've a few thoughts as to how it could be moved on, but I need food, so will post later OK... I do have a few ideas on this one, but further thinking leads me to believe that there is no practice of Awenyddion that could be reconstructed even if it were given 21st century context and symbolism... the Awenyddion don't seem to have a practice, they were more of a phenomenon. As such, they were singular to a set of assumptions about the nature of reality that would probably need to be recreated for the phenomenon to emerge. And I don't think that is going to happen, so anything we do would mimic the Awenyddion rather than recreate the phenomenon. We can explore trance techniques as divinatory and oracular tools using what little we know of the original phenomenon to guide us, but it would be, in Teg's words, more of a reconnection than a recreation. Anyone any thoughts on the value of this?
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Post by potia on Aug 30, 2009 10:33:16 GMT -1
Thoughts - yes. Coherent ones not at present. For possibilities of developing something for Brython for oracular/divinatory purposes I think a good look at Seidr would be very useful.
I think there could be a place in Brython for such ritual in future but not as a frequent regular thing - special occaisions and under set circumstances only.
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Post by Adam on Aug 30, 2009 10:49:44 GMT -1
Thoughts - yes. Coherent ones not at present. For possibilities of developing something for Brython for oracular/divinatory purposes I think a good look at Seidr would be very useful. I know very little about Seidr... I should learn more as it does seem very trance orientated. Does it have association with divination or prophecy? I think there could be a place in Brython for such ritual in future but not as a frequent regular thing - special occaisions and under set circumstances only. Makes a lot of sense to me... invocation of trance for divinatory purposes does not strike me as a trivial thing
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Post by Heron on Aug 30, 2009 15:58:51 GMT -1
Thoughts - yes. Coherent ones not at present. For possibilities of developing something for Brython for oracular/divinatory purposes I think a good look at Seidr would be very useful. The usually historical source for Seiðr divination is the visit of the Greenland seeress (spákona) in T he Saga of Eirik the Red. Discussed by Jenny Blain in her Nine Worlds of Seid-Magic. There are other references in e.g. The Völuspá (a poem from the Edda) But the story of the Greenland Seeress gives an actual description of her practice, though not the chant (Varðlokur) that is sung to gain wisdom.
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 30, 2009 18:14:46 GMT -1
because there wasnt a pantheon in the same way, and we have no record of anything remotely like it from the indo-European world. This is gonna be a stupid question Megli, but then again, I'm pretty stupid. But I really want to know... In what way are the pantheons different? In other words, What are the major differences?
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Post by megli on Aug 31, 2009 8:18:04 GMT -1
because there wasnt a pantheon in the same way, and we have no record of anything remotely like it from the indo-European world. In what way are the pantheons different? In other words, What are the major differences? Hi! Absolutely not stupid question at all. There's a series of basic differences. The first is that archaeology and epigraphy present us with a religion of incredibly localised deities: a very high number of god-names attested on inscriptions from gaul and roman britain are attested only once. This is quite different from classical paganism: you don't have a pantheon of deities (or don't primarily have that) rather you have an incredibly local selection of gods and goddesses--your tribe's god of war, your tribe's river goddess. When you have four hundred individual named deities, clearly they weren't like the twelve Olympians, forming a kind of squabbling divine family. However, there were some more widespread deities: Lugos, for example, and Cernunnos, perhaps. (I occasionally wonder whether the druids---whom we know were as it were an 'intertribal' and even international body, like professional poets in medieval Wales and Ireland---had a more coherent and sophisticated pantheon of their own, which is one of the things I was hinting at in my little story.) Another thing they have which is odd in I-E terms is war-goddesses of great importance. These aren't directely attested in Britain, but as I've said elsewhere the valley of the Aeron indicates there was once a goddess Agrona, 'Slaughter-goddess', and there's an interesting Roman inscription to 'the three lamiae' which looks like a Roman attempt to get to grips with a native trio of carrion battle-goddesses. And both the Gauls---speaking a language very close to British---and the Irish had a female war deity which they called 'Battle Crow'. It's important to note that major goddesses are rather thin on the ground in I-E myth: we can only reconstruct one with certainty, and that's a kind of Dawn figure, a sun-daughter. (Eos, Aurora, Eostre, Ushas (all cognate names btw), Saule, possibly Sulis.) All the rest are unique to their individual pantheons. Whereas we have quite a lot of widely attested male deities: the sky-father, the grandson-of-waters, the twin horsemen, the god of cosmic order. The fact that the British had a lot of major female divinities thus marks them out as fairly unusual. Does this make sense?
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Post by redraven on Aug 31, 2009 13:48:20 GMT -1
Hi! There's a series of basic differences. The first is that archaeology and epigraphy present us with a religion of incredibly localised deities: a very high number of god-names attested on inscriptions from gaul and roman britain are attested only once. This is quite different from classical paganism: you don't have a pantheon of deities (or don't primarily have that) rather you have an incredibly local selection of gods and goddesses--your tribe's god of war, your tribe's river goddess. When you have four hundred individual named deities, clearly they weren't like the twelve Olympians, forming a kind of squabbling divine family. Yes, it has occurred to me that there appears to be more emphasis on local deities here than elsewhere. I suspect that the independent tribal societies, with their history of intertribal conflicts resulted in a less coherent pantheon of Gods than elsewhere in Europe. This could be the result of no one tribe or authority controlling the whole of the island and therefore, being unable to impose their patron deities over the whole population. Another thing they have which is odd in I-E terms is war-goddesses of great importance. These aren't directely attested in Britain, but as I've said elsewhere the valley of the Aeron indicates there was once a goddess Agrona, 'Slaughter-goddess', and there's an interesting Roman inscription to 'the three lamiae' which looks like a Roman attempt to get to grips with a native trio of carrion battle-goddesses. And both the Gauls---speaking a language very close to British---and the Irish had a female war deity which they called 'Battle Crow'. It's important to note that major goddesses are rather thin on the ground in I-E myth: we can only reconstruct one with certainty, and that's a kind of Dawn figure, a sun-daughter. (Eos, Aurora, Eostre, Ushas (all cognate names btw), Saule, possibly Sulis.) All the rest are unique to their individual pantheons. Whereas we have quite a lot of widely attested male deities: the sky-father, the grandson-of-waters, the twin horsemen, the god of cosmic order. The fact that the British had a lot of major female divinities thus marks them out as fairly unusual. What I find interesting is the association with female divinities that is very much prevalent here, it would appear the role of the feminine was very much enhanced, which, no doubt, pissed off the Romans somewhat! RR
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Post by megli on Aug 31, 2009 16:18:29 GMT -1
Well, they had powerful goddesses too.
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Post by dreamguardian on Aug 31, 2009 18:09:03 GMT -1
Very much so, thanks very much. I've read many works on our deities, M Green 'Gods of the Celts' & of course 'Gods with thunderbolts' to name just 2. Fantastic works but I never quite made complete sense of them. A reflection sorely on my embarressing lack of education rather than their academic conclusions. However, with your summary I had a light bulb above my head moment & so much made more sense contextually. I'm really grateful. BTW I echo everyone else in that you should write your novel. I couldn't help wonder what happened before to lead up to the moment of your story. I also sensed someone was 'gonna get it'! Please make that part as graphic & blood curdling as poss ;D
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Post by megli on Aug 31, 2009 18:19:18 GMT -1
It's gonna be NASTY. hehe!
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Post by Adam on Sept 1, 2009 7:30:27 GMT -1
Thoughts - yes. Coherent ones not at present. For possibilities of developing something for Brython for oracular/divinatory purposes I think a good look at Seidr would be very useful. OK, a *very* cursory look at Seidr would indicate that it is rooted in a very specific set of understandings about the physical and non-physical make up of the person, as well as of the world (specific relationship between the "soul", that aspect that leaves the body while in trance, a fylgja (which seems kinda similar to Philip Pullman's daemon :-) ), and a specific cosmology that is journeyed through. Modern practitioners seem to adopt a shamanic approach to trance induction. Is there any point of connection there with what we understand of Brythonic trance practices?
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Post by megli on Sept 1, 2009 7:46:48 GMT -1
Thoughts - yes. Coherent ones not at present. For possibilities of developing something for Brython for oracular/divinatory purposes I think a good look at Seidr would be very useful. OK, a *very* cursory look at Seidr would indicate that it is rooted in a very specific set of understandings about the physical and non-physical make up of the person, as well as of the world (specific relationship between the "soul", that aspect that leaves the body while in trance, a fylgja (which seems kinda similar to Philip Pullman's daemon :-) ), and a specific cosmology that is journeyed through. Modern practitioners seem to adopt a shamanic approach to trance induction. Is there any point of connection there with what we understand of Brythonic trance practices? Since, apart from one brief 12th century ref to awenyddion, we don't actually HAVE any knowledge of Brythonic trance practices, it's rather difficult to say, isn't it?! BIT OF A RANT.... Occasionally I fear a kind of Standard Model Polytheism developing in Paganism, on the kind of windward edge of Druidry and Wicca. That is, you have a basic formula for how a polytheistic system works, consisting of: a pantheon of similarish compartmentalised gods cherry-picked from medieval or ancient sources a few nice festivals based more or less on Wicca, but superficially deWiccanised by being given a foreign name like 'blot' or 'gwyl' or 'feis' given the above, a rather unjustified sense of superiority to Wicca/Druidry some (re-)paganised medieval literature told solemnly around a campfire as though it were mystic teachings of the ancients plus the odd bit of magic or trance thrown in to spice everything up a bit and allow us to let our hair down. If we're not careful we're going to end up like the really minor parties in the European Parliament. ('And the next speaker is Benoit Duprel, of the Luxembourg Agriculturalists' Party!') Terribly cynical of me, I know, but there seems to be an intermittent feeling that whatever the Heathens have, we should cobble together a version of it too. (See 'aelwyd', which we created together as a blatant calque on Heathen 'Hearths'.) I was reflecting to Lee the other day that reviving the worship of Brythonic deities will always belong to a fringe of a fringe of a fringe. The reason for this is that we no longer want from the gods what our ancestors did. None of us, I suspect, think that if we don't cut a piglet's throat in our back garden every November the winter will bring ill-fortune, or that failure to offer mead and beer to Ambactonos at sowing-time will stop us having enough bread to eat. In a globalised, post-industrial, bio-engineered and postmodern world those things just aren't relevant, despite the atavistic urge I myself certainly feel to move to a farmhouse in Powys and waft around in a robe feeling all druidical. Most people in this country certainly aren't especially devout or spiritually inclined, and I suspect that's always been true: your British farmer in 45 BC probably made his offerings not out of a deep love of his deities, but rather as you or I would pay our insurance premiums---a necessary, functional, but not necessarily a 'deep' experience. (Think of the relentlessly factual tone of the defixiones to Sulis. Not 'Oh divine mother, thank you for stirring my heart with your mystic flame of fire!'---more: 'Sulis, I've had this expensive cloth pinched. Please help me catch the thief and get it back.') So now that healthcare and food aren't overwhelming questions for most people, the only real reason to pursue particular deities is because you personally love them. We want life to be given increasing savour and depth, and to give expression to the love we feel for the land and for the stories that are woven into it, and to feel that we are doing something worthwhile. We're kind of doing it for love---love of the natural world, love of the characters of Welsh literature, love of a palimpsestic sense of the past-layered-in-the-present; and I'm not sure these would be easily imaginable emotions for actual Britons prior to 43AD, or Roman Britons prior to 410AD, or the last dribs and drabs of R-B pagans at the end of that same century. I can't imagine anything less conducive to a real, deepening spiritual life than a kind of revived 'do-ut-des' paganism: 'Here, Rigantona, I'll give you this offering if you help me concieve/pass this exam/buy a house'. God, even Christianity's better than that. On the other hand, people---from Iolo to Yeats to Philip Carr-Gomm---have already tried spinning mystical depths out of the feeble scraps of Celtic material we have, and the resultant fragile confections usually say---like all UPG---a great deal more about the person who came up with them than they do about the hidden spiritual mysteries of human life. It's a quandary, and no mistake!
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Post by Adam on Sept 1, 2009 8:18:35 GMT -1
OK, a *very* cursory look at Seidr would indicate that it is rooted in a very specific set of understandings about the physical and non-physical make up of the person, as well as of the world (specific relationship between the "soul", that aspect that leaves the body while in trance, a fylgja (which seems kinda similar to Philip Pullman's daemon :-) ), and a specific cosmology that is journeyed through. Modern practitioners seem to adopt a shamanic approach to trance induction. Is there any point of connection there with what we understand of Brythonic trance practices? Since, apart from one brief 12th century ref to awenyddion, we don't HAVE any Brythonic trance practices, it's rather difficult to say, isn't it? :-) If I had a brain this morning, I should have said "with what we understand of Brythonic trance practices, their concepts of the make up of self/person and cosmology"
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Post by megli on Sept 1, 2009 8:38:37 GMT -1
We don't have any of those either! You could try having a bit of a funny turn---I recommend large amount of gin---and making up some extempore poetry while people ask you questions. Record the answers and see if they are relevant. That would, at least, be genuinely Brythonic (apart from not being in Welsh or done by an actual awenydd, but never mind, can't have everything. )
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Post by Adam on Sept 1, 2009 9:36:31 GMT -1
We don't have any of those either! I kind of knew that, which was leading me to ask if looking to Seidr practice was in anyway more useful than looking to Vodou etc... You could try having a bit of a funny turn---I recommend large amount of gin---and making up some extempore poetry while people ask you questions. Record the answers and see if they are relevant. hmmm... you might hear some maudlin' prohecy
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Post by littleraven on Sept 1, 2009 10:00:50 GMT -1
We don't have any of those either! Do we not? Nothing to do with reposing upon yellow bull hides? No similarity to the Tarb feis?
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Post by Francis on Sept 1, 2009 10:56:38 GMT -1
Hi Megli - In my more cumbersome and less appealing style I've posted the very same observations here several times before - so I couldn't agree with you more - although following a little further reflection you would, of course, have concluded that a farmhouse in Gwynedd would have be your proposed exiled destination. We're kind of doing it for love---love of the natural world, love of the characters of Welsh literature, love of a palimpsestic sense of the past-layered-in-the-present; and I'm not sure these would be easily imaginable emotions for actual Britons prior to 43AD, or Roman Britons prior to 410AD, or the last dribs and drabs of R-B pagans at the end of that same century. I can't imagine anything less conducive to a real, deepening spiritual life than a kind of revived 'do-ut-des' paganism: 'Here, Rigantona, I'll give you this offering if you help me concieve/pass this exam/buy a house'. God, even Christianity's better than that. I could rant on myself, but essentially I'd just be repeating the same points Megli makes but from my own perhaps more rural perspective (no offense intended ) I strongly believe the crux of all we're doing here is to be found in the statement Megli offers on why we're "doing it". So hands-up how many of us are "doing it for love of the natural world, love of the characters of Welsh literature, love of a palimpsestic sense of the past-layered-in-the-present" ? No really hands-up. Reading Megli's recent little illustration I'm more aware aware than ever of how little it really appeals. Even the juvenile, jealous Jehovah didn't insist Abraham finish off Isaac. To me a Brythonic path has always been more about geography than a specific blink-of-an-eye period of human history such as the iron age. A love of these islands of ours- their natural history, human history and myths and legends, and how those three things build and colour my emotional interaction with the local Spirits of Place that I have relationship with. I could bollock on but I'd only be going around in circles. So I ask this question of you, because I'm starting to feel I might have been making some mistaken assumptions? Is having relationship with the natural world part of the game we're playing here? Or is that just a little too close to popular fluffy neo-paganism for comfort? So - Is having relationship with the natural world part of the game we're playing here?
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