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Post by potia on Aug 28, 2009 10:13:53 GMT -1
Hi folks,
A freind of mine living near the Forth has come across a title of "The silent one" for the river. All I can find so far is that Forth is from the Gaelic meaning black river. Has anyone else heard of the Forth being the silent one or indeed any other name?
She's also wanting to use an older language than English to address the river. Megli (or anyone else for that matter) can you offer any suggestions of how one might say "the silent one" or the black river in Brythonic?
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Post by Tegernacus on Aug 28, 2009 11:27:43 GMT -1
I think Ptolemy called it the Boderia, meaning .. erm... could be slow-moving, or maybe deep. But that's the name you need to research I think
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Post by megli on Aug 28, 2009 12:15:17 GMT -1
Absolutely no idea. Ptolemy's map is really screwed when he came to scotland---the whole area is twisted to the right, so it''s really hard to map his names onto present features. The Forth might be the Boderia estuary, or it could be the Alaunus river than he refers to. But I suppose the Boderia is better. This account of the issues is excellent: I can vouch that it is valid scholarship-- marikavel.com/rivieres/forth.htmTo precis, it gives four possibilities: Bodotria (the form given by Tacitus) and Boderia (given by Ptolemy) could be variants of a word *bodos, bodotos. This is the 'victory, excellence' root seen in Boudicca, which is well-attested but might be odd for a river. ('The Excellent One'?) That the bod- is from an I-E root *bhudh to do with bottoms. (fnar fnar)--thus the part of a river where it flows through a flat plain. But this root is not common in celtic, and I think this explanation unlikely. The name might be a metathesised version (a version where two consonants have swapped places) of *Bodortia. This would be cognate with Irish bodhar, 'deaf', which when used of water, means sluggish; the form Bodortia would mean 'Deafened' and the form Boderia or, more properly, *Bodaria, would mean 'Deaf One, Silent One'---Potia this is where your 'silent' idea comes from. I like this one best. Finally, Ptolemy's Boderia could be a mishearing of *Bogderia, 'Bendy One, Curving One', as the cluster -gd- would sound very unnatural to Latin ears, whilst being normal in Celtic. A final suggestion of my own: Boderia from a root *boud-aia- meaning 'churn': 'The churning estuary'. I suppose Boderia cd be a slightly garbled version of *Boudaiaria, 'The churning one'. BUT please NB, this is my hypothetical reconstruction and I am not a place name expert. What I say should not be taken as any more than an informed guess. So, Potia, go for Boderia, or Bodaria, or Bodortia, I would, if you want to call the river 'Silent' in Brythonic. You could also address her as *A Bodaria Uxellisama Tausela, 'O Silent One, Most lofty Quiet Lady'. |
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Post by potia on Aug 28, 2009 12:44:33 GMT -1
Many, many thanks. Megli would you mind me passing your post as it is to the friend in question? Her name by the way is Dronma and she's an artist - if you are interested you can see some of her work here - www.dronma.com/ |
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Post by Adam on Aug 28, 2009 13:05:03 GMT -1
Her name by the way is Dronma and she's an artist - if you are interested you can see some of her work here - www.dronma.com/ Nice paintings... not usually a style that would capture my attention, but a nice sense of the dramatic. Distinctive. You might suggest she change the line "Painting is Dronma's first love, and one of her earliest memories is of being given a stool and water-colour materials...". I'm still wiping my screen ;D <note to self... erase mental images> Scatological, moi? |
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Post by megli on Aug 28, 2009 16:27:32 GMT -1
do feel free potia!
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Post by potia on Aug 30, 2009 10:09:40 GMT -1
Many thanks Megli.
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Post by potia on Sept 3, 2009 20:40:56 GMT -1
With everything else that has been going on for me I neglected to pass on Dronma's thanks for this earlier Megli. In her own words: "Thanks sooo much...will meditate on it..... the Alaunus river I feel in my gut is the moddern Allan river at Bridge of Allan that sort of makes sense..... the forth is meandering... and went through the ancient Flanders moss where will o' the wisps were seen.... also to this day the valley often is in fog and mist while up here in the village i can be in the sunshine with views over the cloud covered valley below on the carse..... you could pass this back to him... thanks again... think I will paint her and the name will probably be confirmed... wait till the geese return though BB Dronma" |
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