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Post by arth_frown on Dec 2, 2009 9:47:47 GMT -1
I've just been reading on another forum about a woman who did a talk at camp and said that cancerians shouldn't have operations on a full moon, because of excessive bleeding.
The woman who was in the audience has now a younger sister who is cancerian is having a operation tomorrow on what she thinks is the full moon. It's bad enough worrying about love ones having a operation put having a 'wise woman' giving out unqualified medical advice is dangerous and stupid.
I'm i right in thinking this?
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 2, 2009 9:55:55 GMT -1
gah... fecking astrologers giving out medical advice. They'll be saying Librans shouldn't have blood transfusions during the new moon of Leo next. Bollocks.
Moontides do affect oceans, mental states, menstruation in some people. But not the ability of platelets to coagulate. And certainly not in controlled theater environments. Dangerous babble.
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Post by Adam on Dec 2, 2009 10:21:18 GMT -1
Absolutely... mindless bollocks... but there surely has to be some responsibility, caveat emptor, on behalf of her audience to apply some critical thinking here.
OK, if some one refuses a life saving operation until the unicorn of Albion has circled the great Oak three times sunwise and scoffed Persephone's Quince, I think you have a genuine case for arguing for detention under the mental health act. But simple gullibility is remedied by some fairly simple learning/thinking strategies.
When a Jehovah's Witness refuses a transfusion for themselves or another, who would you regard as responsible for the decision, the teachers of that particular faith, or the believer?
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 2, 2009 11:22:34 GMT -1
ah.. BUT. When someone signs up for the JWs, they are fully aware of the rules, regulations and expectations that they have to follow. So in that case, it is the believer that must take responsibility. (Unless brought up in the Church, obviously, when you don't have much choice)
However, in the case Arth is talking about, we are talking about a bunch of "believers" who believe in Astrology. They believe in the ability of Astrologers to give advice. In that case, it is the responsibilty of the Astrologer to give good advice. So in Arth's case, when the "rules" are made up ad-hoc, it is the responsibility of the teacher.
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 2, 2009 11:25:04 GMT -1
Of course, it would be easy to say "don't be so fecking gullible", but without that erm... dogma? Set in stone rules? It is easy for people to be set on the wrong path. (And it's not just Astrologers, same could be said of Psychologists, doctors etc - except those people have a code of ethics, a framework in law. Mother Shipton doesn't.)
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Post by Adam on Dec 2, 2009 11:52:22 GMT -1
Fair point... I oversimplified the case, I will admit. BUT... even the believers in astrology have the choice available to them to compare, weigh and contrast evidence from other fields. www.mollysastrology.com/astrology-tutorials/surgery-rulesThis lady excludes 10 days of the lunar cycle in her first two rules!! That leaves (does sums on fingers...) 18 daysish. Knock out moon in Virgo, Gemini, Pisces or Sagittarius (rule 5) and (I'm guessing at the astronomy/astrology here because I can't be bothered to look it up) you lose a third or so. Add in the other various complexities and it seems to me that you're pretty much fucked! The problem with laying the sole responsibility at the feet of the astrological advisor is that said advisor is beholden to absolutely no-one for that advice or its consequences. And as far as I can see the Consumer Protection Regulations (which provide some protection against fraudulent mediumship/psychic claims) wouldn't apply. Which is a shame, but I can't see how we can legislate against stupid, dangerous advice. A believer in astrology doesn't have to abrogate responsibility for decisions to an individual... they are still capable of doing some research themselves, taking in data from further afield than astrology in the process. A bit of medical research maybe, since I suspect that most would presumably trust the medics far enough to cut holes in them when it becomes necessary. If they do not have that capacity then do they fall into the category of vulnerable people, who should be afforded protection from exploitation or harm via other means? Just throwing that into the mix since it clearly cannot be answered except in specific cases. *Edited to add: By the way... read comment 6 which is from the author of the article.... the reference to "hocus-pocus" had me laughing out loud * Edited again when I realised I had misread her rules... but I take that as confirmation of how ridiculously complex they are, plus supportive of the likelihood that any such would have been noted, at least on a lunar cycle, by surgeons over the years.
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Post by arth_frown on Dec 2, 2009 12:29:22 GMT -1
Let's face it. there plenty of pagans who are gullible and will except any old rubbish from those of 'importance'. The 'wise woman' is apparently a qualified herbalist. If she is qualified she should of known not to give advice beyond of own expertise. Families of those having operations is worrying enough let alone excess bollocks worrying.
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Post by Adam on Dec 2, 2009 12:38:54 GMT -1
Families of those having operations is worrying enough let alone excess bollocks worrying. Given... and having had a recent breast cancer scare with my wife, I wouldn't wish excess worry on anyone, whatever the cause. The role of any half decent human being is, IMO, to support in times of fear and anxiety.
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Post by potia on Dec 2, 2009 13:10:31 GMT -1
I hate it when folk make sweepiing generalisations like this. There seem to be areas of medically related advice that can be useful when given from a proper birth chart but like anything else there are no absolutes.
My mum is an astrologer and a retired nurse. She has used astrology to help clients with some medical situations but always carefully and with recommendations for proper medical advice. I have never heard her say anything about avoiding professional medical treatment for any reason.
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 2, 2009 13:32:03 GMT -1
yeah, but in a 1-to-1 consultation you take into account the medical history, personal circumstances etc of the patient/client. Standing up in a camp and making statements like that to an audience that, in all likelyhood, will believe it (or at least a portion of them) is dangerous, unethical and wrong.
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 2, 2009 13:33:03 GMT -1
and if I had been in the Camp at the time I would have stood up and told her she was talking bollocks. Surprised other people didn't - hate all that "hey, stop oppressing my point of view" attitude.
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Post by dreamguardian on Dec 2, 2009 15:09:02 GMT -1
It's bad enough worrying about love ones having a operation put having a 'wise woman' giving out unqualified medical advice is dangerous and stupid. I'm i right in thinking this? Yeah., you're right Arth. Personally I don't buy into astrology but even so... As you know, I've worked for the NHS for over 20 years - it's fucking bollocks & dangerous.
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Post by megli on Dec 2, 2009 15:43:40 GMT -1
Astrology's a tricky one: you have to be familiar with it deeply to be able to grasp its value, and most people who are anti-astrology for whatever reason are understandably not prepared to make the effort. It's a hugely complicated and very rich symbol-system: the only thing comparable to it in terms of sheer extent of recorded history and cultural ubiquity would be religion itself. Elsewhere I've called it a 'poetics of the human', and I use it every day (as well as having written a book about it). It works in much the same way that Jungian psychology works and gives insight into the psyche: no, Saturn doesn't send down literal rays that affect your life, and no, inside you there are not literal homunculi labelled 'Anima', and 'Shadow' etc. Nevertheless, in my opinion and experience, both systems---if correctly and ethically used and understood---are of immense value as tools for self-understanding and for understanding other people. They also depend on a symbolic and mysterious congruence of the outer and inner worlds---of cosmos and psyche---that I find grand and beautiful, as well as experientially functional. That is, in my experience, it works as a generator of insight. Consistently, and usefully---again, just like Jungian psychology. Things can be true without being literal: this is the whole point of myth---after all, we all know that pigs didn't literally come from the underworld, but are a type of ungulate that evolved from other mammals. That doesn't mean we don't find meaning in the story of Gwydion stealing the swine from the south. Astrology is similar: I know the sun is a big ball of superhot gases in which hydrogen is continually being fused into helium; nevertheless, when i was born it was in 4 degrees of Taurus, conjunct Chiron and trining the Moon, Mars, and Jupiter in Leo, and that the astrological information associated with that placement very accurately describes the most important aspects of my personality.
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Post by dreamguardian on Dec 2, 2009 16:23:02 GMT -1
I was referring to the womans comments/advice being nonsense, Megli rather than astrology itself. As I've said, it's really my thing, though.
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Post by clare on Dec 2, 2009 17:02:35 GMT -1
I'm with Adam on this one: if someone truly believes that surgery shouldn't be performed at the full moon then they are vulnerable and need to have decisions made for them.
Alternatively, the attention-seeking soap opera virus is at play.
'Wise Woman.' Oh dear.
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Post by megli on Dec 2, 2009 17:05:25 GMT -1
No no, I agree Adam---and Clare!
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Post by clare on Dec 2, 2009 17:12:28 GMT -1
The joys of email!
In being with Adam, I am not against anyone else!
Like you, Megli, I am a fan of astrology and for the same reasons, though not with anything like the skill.
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Post by dreamguardian on Dec 2, 2009 18:27:02 GMT -1
In being with Adam, I am not against anyone else! Thats the bonus of this particular forum. We may disagree, sometimes intensely ( ie. a recent thread of mine) but we never take it personally.
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Post by dreamguardian on Dec 2, 2009 18:33:18 GMT -1
Astrology's a tricky one: you have to be familiar with it deeply to be able to grasp its value, and most people who are anti-astrology for whatever reason are understandably not prepared to make the effort. It's a hugely complicated and very rich symbol-system: the only thing comparable to it in terms of sheer extent of recorded history and cultural ubiquity would be religion itself. Elsewhere I've called it a 'poetics of the human', and I use it every day (as well as having written a book about it). Details of the book, please. Either here or PM I always look forward to your imput, Megli as it's always reasoned, researched and precise. I also respect your superior interlect to mine. Having read your blogs on such matters, I have to really take note, especially considering your profession and learning. I just can't see how - and this is where I clearly show my ignorance of subject once again - how planetary positions etc can have an impact on little ol' me. Whether it be at my birth or other such times
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