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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 5, 2010 13:25:26 GMT -1
I would imagine this question has been proposed before but I can't find the thread.
I'm quite reflective at the moment but positive. I've naturally been involved in important discussions recently as a result of my fathers recent illness & it's naturally raised certain questions.
In particular:
What is the purpose of our existence?
Can we answer this within a Brythonic sense?
Is there anything we can gleam from our ancestors what their ideas were?
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Post by Lee on Jan 5, 2010 13:32:07 GMT -1
totally bleak answer from me i am afraid - im in work so in science mode:
the purpose of life is to live an pass on your genes to the next generation.
we are nothing more than very complex vehicles for DNA to propogate itself.
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 5, 2010 17:47:02 GMT -1
I go through different moods about it. I'm faced with death & illness regulary as a paramedic & feel the same as you but on a rare occassion or 2, I have moments that I describe as 'other' & wonder maybe there's more.
My father not being well & facing his own mortality brought it to my attention again. So it's not that bleak, Lee. Just honest.
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Post by redraven on Jan 5, 2010 18:50:54 GMT -1
What is the purpose of our existence? To experience the physicality of existence and the consequences of said existence, hopefully using all the means available to us (within our own moral frames of reference) to qualify our experiences. Can we answer this within a Brythonic sense? I think this is fairly straight forward, the classical writings state that there was little regard for physical death by the local populations because of their belief in reincarnation. Is there anything we can gleam from our ancestors what their ideas were? I suspect their existence was more closely tied to the possibility of a quick and sometimes very painful death which can sometimes lead one to grab life a bit more firmly than some do in the 21st century. the purpose of life is to live an pass on your genes to the next generation. I would suggest that is the purpose of evolution and not necessarily the purpose of life. we are nothing more than very complex vehicles for DNA to propogate itself. Is it not the case that single celled organisms have virtually the same number of genes than the human genome? Was this not one of the startling consequences of mapping such a thing? Single celled organisms propagate very successfully without the complexity so why create such complexity? RR
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Post by Adam on Jan 5, 2010 20:56:16 GMT -1
I'm quite reflective at the moment but positive. I've naturally been involved in important discussions recently as a result of my fathers recent illness & it's naturally raised certain questions. First, let me wish you, your father and your family well at what clearly sounds like a time of difficult issues In particular: What is the purpose of our existence? I have always tended to the view that if our existence has a purpose (in the teleological sense), it is to define that purpose for ourselves in a manner that includes our relationships with ourselves, our family, our community and our world (populated by all the beings of the world)... I've always understood this to be a mythic process, in which we develop a personal mythology and explore the relationships between the personal and the communal mythologies. One of the reasons I am still here ;-) Can we answer this within a Brythonic sense? Is there anything we can gleam from our ancestors what their ideas were? If my answer makes any sort of sense, then we do so by seeking the continuity of mythological reality that we are part of and seeking to understand how we fit into that the purpose of life is to live an pass on your genes to the next generation. we are nothing more than very complex vehicles for DNA to propogate itself. I'm not sure that that is a "purpose" as such, any more than natural selection has any teleological component... it is simply something that happens. The advantage and curse of higher level mental functioning, cognition and self-awareness (I feel a Julian Jaynes moment coming on) is that we can engage with, explore and choose purpose
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Post by potia on Jan 6, 2010 9:53:08 GMT -1
What is the purpose of our existence?
Does there have to be purpose for our existence? I think we can choose a purpose for our lives but I don't think that's the same as the purpose of our existence.
Can we answer this within a Brythonic sense? Not sure.
Is there anything we can gleam from our ancestors what their ideas were? If you are talking about our pre-christian brythonic ancestors then as far as I am aware they are thought to have believed in some form of re-incarnation. I'm not sure if anything is known about the reasons or purposes of such re-incarnation though. Perhaps simply to connect to other forms of life by being alive.
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 6, 2010 10:41:54 GMT -1
First, let me wish you, your father and your family well at what clearly sounds like a time of difficult issues Thanks, Adam. It's very much appreciated & your observations too.
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 6, 2010 10:47:59 GMT -1
What is the purpose of our existence?Does there have to be purpose for our existence? I think we can choose a purpose for our lives but I don't think that's the same as the purpose of our existence. That seems to be my conclusions at the moment The reasons are lost but I think it was a bit more than what the classical writers state, that they believed in a R-I just to make them fearless in battle. Maybe it's like me at the moment, simply trying come to terms with the mind fuck that death is final!
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Post by potia on Jan 6, 2010 11:59:06 GMT -1
Maybe it's like me at the moment, simply trying come to terms with the mind fuck that death is final! In the sense of a physical presence you can talk to and touch yes death is final but in the sense of our emotions and memories of the person that dies then no it isn't final. You may remember I wrote about a bit about this in my blog back in the summer. If you want to take another look you'll find it at: pedwarceffyl.blogspot.com/2009/06/death-and-continuity-of-self.html
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Post by clare on Jan 6, 2010 18:40:29 GMT -1
I was a kid when both my parents died and more than anything else I *needed* (rather than wishes or hoped for) them to come back. There was and has never been any hint or dream or anything else that there is anything like life after death. This is, indeed, a mindfuck. I have two anwers for this. One is a structured approach to being with a dying person you have a relationship with, whether that's a relationship of love or anything else. The second is a structured approach to bereavement. Orthodox Judaism has some excellent rituals for this. Also see www.sacreddying.org/who-we-are.htmand read widely on the subject. When someone close to us begins the process of dying we too are pulled with them into their involuntary rite of passage. We become liminal people, that is, we cannot function as usual in any role or setting. The obsessional focus on productivity gets horrifically in the way of this. If a person is unable to quit their job, not pay rent or mortgage, (all of which is possible as long as a person is able to take a dive in status) then it's possible to timetable in a routine of attending to the demands of this most sacred event. If nothing else, Dreamguardian, be kind to yourself, ask for and accept help, and know that this will substancially move you out of the apparent world. When you can, embrace that. Very best wishes to you and yours.
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 6, 2010 18:58:31 GMT -1
Maybe it's like me at the moment, simply trying come to terms with the mind fuck that death is final! In the sense of a physical presence you can talk to and touch yes death is final but in the sense of our emotions and memories of the person that dies then no it isn't final. You may remember I wrote about a bit about this in my blog back in the summer. If you want to take another look you'll find it at: pedwarceffyl.blogspot.com/2009/06/death-and-continuity-of-self.htmlThanks Pauline & for your kind PM
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 6, 2010 19:04:31 GMT -1
I was a kid when both my parents died and more than anything else I *needed* (rather than wishes or hoped for) them to come back. There was and has never been any hint or dream or anything else that there is anything like life after death. This is, indeed, a mindfuck. Over 20 years as a paramedic neither have I Thanks Clare. I'm quite positive ( speaking with medical hat on & not a fluffee one) about his prognosis but it made me think. Some of my professional jobs have done at times too. I thought it worth investigating as we're developing brython further now. Thanks again everyone.
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Post by Lee on Jan 7, 2010 11:25:55 GMT -1
greetings, Nemesis. I would suggest that is the purpose of evolution and not necessarily the purpose of life. evolution is a process which occurss when organisms compete to pass on their genes. sexual reproduction is what allows them to do the passing on or genomes. so the purpose of life is to survive, feed, grow, shag and all in the name of having babies. yep, genome size can vary greatly. complexity offers opportunity. being multicellular allows you to do more, to survive better and therefore pass on your genes. you are always cometing to do this and so any advantage is exploited.
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Post by redraven on Jan 7, 2010 17:06:43 GMT -1
;D evolution is a process which occurss when organisms compete to pass on their genes. sexual reproduction is what allows them to do the passing on or genomes. so the purpose of life is to survive, feed, grow, shag and all in the name of having babies. I could accept that definition if it wasn't for the aspects of learning that have no bearing on the reproductive aspect of living that, to some, now represent the main reason for their lives. With respect, your definition is rather mechanistic by it's nature and makes no account of these other aspects of living. yep, genome size can vary greatly. complexity offers opportunity. being multicellular allows you to do more, to survive better and therefore pass on your genes. you are always cometing to do this and so any advantage is exploited. Again, complexity does aid this aspect of living but I can't accept that this is now the main objective of life. The complexity of organisms would appear to me to be driving the evolution of consciousness. RR
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Post by Lee on Jan 7, 2010 17:32:28 GMT -1
I could accept that definition if it wasn't for the aspects of learning that have no bearing on the reproductive aspect of living that, to some, now represent the main reason for their lives. With respect, your definition is rather mechanistic by it's nature and makes no account of these other aspects of living. ah right.. you are talking about humans here which of course we are only discussing one species out of millions i am sure some people do find certain things give thier life purpose and meaning, but these are purely human and arent to be found elsewhere in the world. they are ultimately superfluous. mechanistic indeed, to the point also indeed. if we took an average of all living things - the purpose it purely about grow, eat, survive and reproduce. humans are an abherration. you could say that reproduction is the purpose of life, whilst these human constructions are what give it 'meaning' (another question in itself) complexity offers advantages when it comes to rep[roducction. conciousness does too. it is a very useful evolutionary adaptation, but ultimately it only arose and propogated because it offered some advatange in the continuation of the species. i know what i am saying is all very cold and heartless as it were but when you boil it all down it is true. it certainly applies to 99.9999999% of all species on earth, and humans are a bit of an abherration in that repsect.
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Post by redraven on Jan 7, 2010 17:58:26 GMT -1
ah right.. you are talking about humans here which of course we are only discussing one species out of millions I read DG's question as being humancentric in it's meaning, was this right? complexity offers advantages when it comes to rep[roducction. conciousness does too. it is a very useful evolutionary adaptation, but ultimately it only arose and propogated because it offered some advatange in the continuation of the species. i know what i am saying is all very cold and heartless as it were but when you boil it all down it is true. it certainly applies to 99.9999999% of all species on earth, and humans are a bit of an abherration in that repsect. Actually, I quite enjoy being an abherration. RR
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 11, 2010 17:21:20 GMT -1
I read DG's question as being humancentric in it's meaning, was this right? [Initially I did because of my own selfish & introverted post but I wasn't being exclusive. To me, all life is equal & relevent & could hold the answers
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Post by redraven on Jan 11, 2010 18:29:52 GMT -1
[Initially I did because of my own selfish & introverted post but I wasn't being exclusive. To me, all life is equal & relevent & could hold the answers From where I'm sat, that would appear to be somewhat harsh on yourself. In your profession I would imagine that the questions you pose may be harder to answer than someone whose experience of death and particularily the circumstances of death, are far removed and only warrant consideration when directly impacting that individual. For you, is there any differential between the physicality of death and the question as to the continuence of the persons individuality? In other words, for you, after the physical act of the bodies death, are you observing or trying to observe some form of activity to suggest continuence? I have difficulty in accepting that all the experiences we go through in this physical existence are all a matter of chance and coincidence. My own worldview, I have to admit, is heavily influenced by the writings of the current neo-shamans, who for me, hit the spot, so to speak. RR
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Post by megli on Jan 11, 2010 22:14:24 GMT -1
Purpose of life? Absolutely no idea!!!
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