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Post by redraven on Apr 4, 2010 17:11:28 GMT -1
Could someone be so good as to enlighten me as to the probable interpretation of the above, Caer Sidi and it's probable/ possible meanings?
RR
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Post by Heron on Apr 4, 2010 19:02:20 GMT -1
Caer = fort or fortified place
Sidi is obscure but probably related to the Irish 'sidh' the 'fairy' mounds.
So the general sense would be an otherworld castle of some sort.
In the 'Preiddeu Annwn' it is said to be the prison of Gwair, and it might just mean a place in the Otherworld. Other 'Caer-' references in the poem include 'Caerfeddwyd' of course among other fortresses of the Otherworld that Arthur is said to have raided.
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Post by redraven on Apr 5, 2010 9:38:07 GMT -1
In the 'Preiddeu Annwn' it is said to be the prison of Gwair, and it might just mean a place in the Otherworld. Other 'Caer-' references in the poem include 'Caerfeddwyd' of course among other fortresses of the Otherworld that Arthur is said to have raided. Is the Preiddeu Annwn translated into English as The Spoils of Annwn? And if so, what do you or anyone else think it (the poem) refers to? RR |
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Post by Heron on Apr 5, 2010 17:57:46 GMT -1
In the 'Preiddeu Annwn' it is said to be the prison of Gwair, and it might just mean a place in the Otherworld. Other 'Caer-' references in the poem include 'Caerfeddwyd' of course among other fortresses of the Otherworld that Arthur is said to have raided. Is the Preiddeu Annwn translated into English as The Spoils of Annwn? And if so, what do you or anyone else think it (the poem) refers to? RR Yes. The poem is about a raid on the Otherworld by Arthur (two shiploads went but only seven returned); one of the 'spoils' was a cauldron of inspiration- perhaps the source of Taliesin's awen. The episode in the Mabinogi tales where Bran and co. go to Ireland and there is a cauldron involved might be another version of this story. |
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Post by redraven on Apr 5, 2010 19:01:27 GMT -1
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Post by Heron on Apr 5, 2010 22:17:59 GMT -1
Sounds a bit wooden to me, but I wouldn't presume to be any sort of expert in early Welsh- perhaps Megli or Deiniol would have a view. But the translation of ni dyrreith o Gaer Sidi as 'none rose up from the fortress of the mound' while I think a possible translation is better rendered as Marged Haycock's 'none came back from Caer Sidi'. 'Dyrreith' (dyrein) can mean 'ascend' as well as 'return', but 'return' seems to me better in context. What exactly do you need to know? |
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Post by redraven on Apr 6, 2010 5:42:42 GMT -1
Sounds a bit wooden to me, but I wouldn't presume to be any sort of expert in early Welsh- perhaps Megli or Deiniol would have a view. But the translation of ni dyrreith o Gaer Sidi as 'none rose up from the fortress of the mound' while I think a possible translation is better rendered as Marged Haycock's 'none came back from Caer Sidi'. 'Dyrreith' (dyrein) can mean 'ascend' as well as 'return', but 'return' seems to me better in context. What exactly do you need to know? This is being discussed elsewhere with one suggestion that one of the Caers may be a veiled description of Stonehenge. Now, you know I'm no linguistic expert in any form, but one English translation refers to "Flowing waters and Jet mingle" and the specific mention of Jet suggests to me a very specific location in the UK. I also was hoping for the considered opinions of members here to better inform me of the possible interpretations, although I understand there is no general agreement on that. RR |
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Post by Heron on Apr 6, 2010 22:11:40 GMT -1
This is being discussed elsewhere with one suggestion that one of the Caers may be a veiled description of Stonehenge. Now, you know I'm no linguistic expert in any form, but one English translation refers to "Flowing waters and Jet mingle" and the specific mention of Jet suggests to me a very specific location in the UK. I also was hoping for the considered opinions of members here to better inform me of the possible interpretations, although I understand there is no general agreement on that. RR 'Flowing waters and jet' (Haywood has 'fresh water') is in the bit about Caer Rigor. It was apparently believed that jet could be ignited by water and put out by oil. I can't see how a link can be made to Stonehenge on that evidence. On the other hand,whatever fantastic constructions may be put on the Taliesin poems by modern pagans can only compete with the fabulations that the author[s?] of the poems themselves constructed. |
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Post by megli on Apr 7, 2010 19:16:51 GMT -1
Absolutely not a description of Stonehenge. These are otherworld locations. I'll add more on this in due course. redraven---you shd try and get haycock's 'legendary poems from the book of Taliesin' if you can, which is the up-to-date scholarly edition. (i.e. an accurate set of translations)
'sidi' (pronounced siddi, with -th-, btw) shows very clearly that this is influenced by irish medieval literature, because the equivalent word in welsh had changed. It looks like an attempt by a 9th century welshman to write the old irish word 'side' (pronounced sheathe-eh), which is the genitive case (the 'of' form) of sid, 'hollow hill, otherworld dwelling'. as welsh does not have cases, this screams 'I KNOW IRISH LITERATURE!!!!'
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Post by redraven on Apr 7, 2010 19:49:45 GMT -1
I was hoping you'd see this Megli, there is some questionable logic involved in this from else where, I look forward to more info from you!
RR
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Post by megli on Apr 8, 2010 8:55:49 GMT -1
What wd you like to know? It's a (?)10th century poem in the voice of the legendary uberbard taliesin, describing an expedition by Arthur in his ship Prydwen and a flotilla against a number of otherworldly fortresses. Tho' the events are obscure (because of the Celtic convention that *you do not tell stories in verse*, you allude) it's clear that it's a huge disaster for Arthur and his men and that they get roundly thumped.
The otherworldly fortresses (islands?) have evocative names, usually slightly gloomy, where we can translate them.
It's a great poem! But its location is the Otherworld. No idea why this meme about finding references to Stonehenge in medieval poems comes up---people keep emailing me and demanding to know if the A-S poem 'The Ruin' is about Stonehenge. To which the answer is---No. Ditto here.
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Post by redraven on Apr 8, 2010 18:35:33 GMT -1
What wd you like to know? It's a (?)10th century poem in the voice of the legendary uberbard taliesin, describing an expedition by Arthur in his ship Prydwen and a flotilla against a number of otherworldly fortresses. Tho' the events are obscure (because of the Celtic convention that *you do not tell stories in verse*, you allude) it's clear that it's a huge disaster for Arthur and his men and that they get roundly thumped. The otherworldly fortresses (islands?) have evocative names, usually slightly gloomy, where we can translate them. It's a great poem! But its location is the Otherworld. That's what I needed clarifying. Not being versed in this sort of literature means I can sometimes view this sort of thing looking for some basis in fact where it would be wrong because the context is firmly, as you both have pointed out, in an other world context. I was intrigued by the mention of Jet though. Is there much literature including this particular mineral? It's inclusion does suggest a specific location although, as Heron has pointed out, it's inclusion may just be there in the (mistaken) understanding as to it's interactions in water. No idea why this meme about finding references to Stonehenge in medieval poems comes up---people keep emailing me and demanding to know if the A-S poem 'The Ruin' is about Stonehenge. To which the answer is---No. Ditto here. Funny you should mention that! ;D I've been reading some speculation around that very subject. I think a lot of the connections being made revolve around Geoffrey of Monmouth's works being interpreted literally, especially the writing centred around Henguist. Plus, of course, the circular structure mentioned lead some to make the connection, although it's not like round structures were not particularly uncommon in these islands! The idea of people emailing you demanding anything amused me though. I can't quite imagine you engaging in cordial discussions about such a demand, for some reason! RR |
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Post by Lee on Apr 8, 2010 22:10:03 GMT -1
jet is petrifed Araucaria wood - monkey puzzle tree- and dates from the Jurassic, so about 100 million years old. it isnt a mineral as such, its compressed wood.
only found in Whitby yorkshire - nowhere else in britain, possibly the world. cant recall at the moment.
wonderful stuff. like amber it is warm to the touch.
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Post by megli on Apr 8, 2010 22:40:53 GMT -1
The idea of people emailing you demanding anything amused me though. I can't quite imagine you engaging in cordial discussions about such a demand, for some reason! RR I'm don't mind being *asked* in the least, but I hate the 'I've discovered the secret to this non-existent 'mystery'' type of email from strangers, which usually involves them 'cracking' some supposed code or elucidating some not-actually-obscure crux in a text in a language which, inevitably, they can't read. It usually involves me receiving an email like the following: Dear Dr william, since i alas have not had the chance to learn the beautyfull language of the Keltick people of Cambria i was wondering if you could translate this section of Bruty brenhined for me, its only 45 pages long and it would mean so much to me i think this is a genuine discovery that ive made that could really transform how people see our ancient british/welsh/anglo-sacson ancestors!!!!!!! Thankyou in advance blessed be, Olwyn Deerdancer /|\'At that point they get politely but firmly told to fuck off.  |
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Post by redraven on Apr 9, 2010 15:07:14 GMT -1
jet is petrifed Araucaria wood - monkey puzzle tree- and dates from the Jurassic, so about 100 million years old. it isnt a mineral as such, its compressed wood. I knew that, yet still referred to it as a mineral  . This age lark is over-rated! only found in Whitby yorkshire - nowhere else in britain, possibly the world. cant recall at the moment. It is found elsewhere, but you are right, Whitby specifically in Britain which is why it's specific mention interested me. wonderful stuff. like amber it is warm to the touch. I agree. I have spent and will continue to spend time at Whitby, I love the atmosphere of the place. I intend to get some jet at some time. At this moment, the only form of semi-precious jewelry I wear is specific from the area I live in. RR |
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Post by redraven on Apr 9, 2010 15:09:35 GMT -1
It usually involves me receiving an email like the following: Dear Dr william, since i alas have not had the chance to learn the beautyfull language of the Keltick people of Cambria i was wondering if you could translate this section of Bruty brenhined for me, its only 45 pages long and it would mean so much to me i think this is a genuine discovery that ive made that could really transform how people see our ancient british/welsh/anglo-sacson ancestors!!!!!!! Thankyou in advance blessed be, Olwyn Deerdancer /|\'At that point they get politely but firmly told to fuck off. Love it. You gave me a good laugh at the end of a difficult day, thanks!! RR |
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Post by deiniol on Apr 9, 2010 15:23:23 GMT -1
At that point they get politely but firmly told to fuck off. I admire your tolerance! I, for one, would probably be lacking somewhat in the politeness stakes! |
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Post by Francis on Apr 9, 2010 19:07:24 GMT -1
I have spent and will continue to spend time at Whitby, I love the atmosphere of the place. You'll have to meet my wife Anna at some point RR. Whitby is the one place in Britain that she's able to resonate with easily and without deliberate contrivance. (For some strange reason she finds the energy of the northern states of India to be most effortlessly accessible to her?) P.S. I should point out she has no interest in vampires - though her sister did have a particularly glamorous 'goth' phase in her youth -- Am I allowed to say that about my wife's sister? |
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Post by redraven on Apr 10, 2010 8:21:39 GMT -1
You'll have to meet my wife Anna at some point RR. Whitby is the one place in Britain that she's able to resonate with easily and without deliberate contrivance. I can fully understand that and I'd like to be able to define why that should be, but can't at this minute in time. P.S. I should point out she has no interest in vampires - though her sister did have a particularly glamorous 'goth' phase in her youth -- Am I allowed to say that about my wife's sister? Goth week at the end of October is an interesting experience! RR |
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. This age lark is over-rated! 