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Post by Francis on Oct 16, 2010 15:18:57 GMT -1
This may be a nosey question! I'm not looking for answers in terms of where you live, I appreciate many people would quite reasonably want to keep that private, but what sort of landscape do you live in?
I suppose I'm asking from the point of view of becoming better acquainted with people here. We all have a rough idea of each others approach and many of the opinions each other holds, but I thought it might be interesting to put that in the context of the landscape we live in.
I guess many people live in towns and I more than accept relationship with that urban landscape is every bit as revealing, and potentially intimate, as relationship with more apparently natural landscapes, but I'm also very interested (nosey) in the landscape your town is contained within.
What are the key relationships that define that landscape. As I mention ad nauseam for me the key human relationship shaping the landscape I live in is that with sheep. In lowland areas I guess it often used to be corn (wheat). How has this key defining relationship changed in recent years - how has the major land use changed, and what affect has this had on the Genius Loci?
For example sheep walks replaced by corn and then more recently oil seed rape on chalk downlands, or oats replaced by wheat on good ground in the west, or even cattle replaced by sheep and then by non-native conifers in Dumfries etc.
What do you think is the key human relationship with the land and 'history of place' in the landscape (rural or urban (and the rural beyond your urban!)) that you live in - has this keystone relationship changed in the recent past and what effect do you think this has had on the Genius Loci?
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Post by potia on Oct 16, 2010 16:26:00 GMT -1
As you know I live in Glasgow. For a long time I lived in the West end of Glasgow near the University of Glasgow campus but for the last five years we have lived on the outskirts in the North East (near Bishopbriggs and Steps). When I first came to Glasgow the area I now live in would have been fields with a mixture of arable and rough grazing land. It was brought up by developers and is now quite the family suburb area. One of the best things about our current locations is that we have a wonderful view of the Campsie hills and when the weather is relatively clear we can also see Ben Lomond and the start of the Arrochar Alps. I'm still getting to know the Genius Loci of this area and I'll admit that this is not something I find easy to do. I think that's partly because of my own backgound but that's another story I am very aware of the fact that just a short time ago the nature of this area was very different then along came mankind and changed things drastically. I think the closest to how the area was are the fields still being farmed up the road in one direction and in the other direction a local park/nature reserve called Robroyston Park. I've been visiting Robroyston park semi regularly for a little while now. The park area has been there longer than the houses where I live. I've had some interesting experiences there which make me think that something there likes me but I'm not sure what. Even since we moved here though the area has changed with a whole new estate area being built up in the last couple of years.
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Post by Rion on Oct 17, 2010 5:13:58 GMT -1
I grew up on the chalk hills of the Chilterns and have lived in various places over the years, but for the moment I live in Tel Aviv. It's a small city on the Mediterranean, little more than 100 years old. It was founded by Jews from the ancient port of Jaffa on the sand dunes above the city. I live in the Neve Tzedek, which is one of the oldest areas of the city and one of the closest to Jaffa. It's about 5 minutes' walk from the sea, but as the area was originally built as a small village with no port its orientation is very much toward the land rather than the sea. In fact, the whole of Tel Aviv is similar - it only recently realised the potential for tourism its beaches provide.
Over the last century the land has gone from sand dunes to high-rises all around the Neve Tzedek as Tel Aviv has mushroomed around it, and the area has become very urban very quickly. It's also one of the few areas of Israel which has been almost entirely Jewish from its inception, as it was previously uninhabited (what Arab villages it did swallow were further north of my area, in a soulless part of town I seldom visit. Oh, and the university used to be a village.). I'm still getting to know the various Genii Loci, but like Potia it's not something I find easy, especially with the heavy monotheism that's dominated the area for thousands of years.
I visit Jaffa regularly, as it's a mere 15 mins' walk away. There's a hill in the centre of Old Jaffa atop of which once stood a Roman temple, on the site of a Greek temple, where before that stood an Egyptian one, and before that there is evidence of Canaanite worship. It's now a park in which I find it very agreeable to sit and look out over the sea and the city, where I get a distinct feeling that something appreciates a little attention every now and then.
I've been thinking a lot recently about something to do with Nodens and Diglandos, what with living so close to the sea, but inspiration has yet to strike.
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Post by redraven on Oct 17, 2010 16:04:42 GMT -1
The area I live in is what estate agents (real estate agents to anyone from outside the UK) refer to as semi-rural, which means I live at the edge of the urban. The landscape was primarily industrial, being a predominantly coal mining area, both deep mine and opencast. This has resulted in a landscape that has been created largely by the endeavours of my and others recent ancestors (this was to be the main thrust of my now, cancelled gathering). Twenty odd years ago, the landscape was dominated by coal slag heaps with much air and water polutants contributing to a landscape that was stifled by industry. Cold still nights resulted in smoke hazes in the early morning as the majority of heating appliances used this readily available fuel source. And my memories from this time and my limited insights into what I now realise were probably originating from S of P were reflected by a feeling of constricted respiration (I hasten to add that I am not nor ever have been prone to any form of restrictive breathing). The end of mining and the transformation of the landscape from industrial into the managed landscape evidenced now have resulted in a landscape that offers a different type of interaction with Genius Loci that I haven't experienced anywhere else. The removal from the substrata of the previous organic based coal and the placing onto the surface of materials removed for access to this material mean that the landscape, no matter how natural it now looks, originated by the actions of my immediate ancestors. And for me, their presence can still be keenly felt. It is my impression that these actions have altered the understanding and effectiveness of the Genius Loci, but interestingly, it appears to now be adapting to and with the continuing dynamic interactions as the natural processes, with guidance from the overseeing authorities, continue to develop.
RR
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Post by Heron on Oct 19, 2010 9:48:11 GMT -1
I live in a rural location with woodland for a view across the valley and a river running down from the hills. I seek to build a relationship with that river valley and to 'belong' to it and in it. The main industry of this area apart from tourism is sheep and cattle farming. The nearest town is five miles away and is dominated by a university and other academic institutions. All this shapes my view of where I live, as does its traditional Welsh-language culture, though these things are not always obviously complementary.
The other feature of the area is that it is near the coast and so the very different ethos of sea and cliffs is also present. This, I find, requires more from me in getting to know it and being a part of it. I'm working on it.
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Post by Francis on Oct 20, 2010 8:59:56 GMT -1
Even since we moved here though the area has changed with a whole new estate area being built up in the last couple of years. Do you feel the "mood" of the Place has changed, or that the Spirit of Place itself is now different? I've suggested my ideas about the physicality of SoP before - certainly I don't hold them as proven 'truths' - but I do wonder about the continuity of SoP through change, or not? Is it replacement, development, adjustment, evolution or death? Is it the same "being" you are aware of now on the new estates that you were aware of in that place before the houses were built? Of course that's a very difficult question - how much identity do I still share with the child I once was etc.. Is the SoP a discrete being bound geographically or ecologically? - Is it mortal, immutable or forever in a state of flux? What of its Sphere of Influence - can that shift over time?
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Post by Francis on Oct 20, 2010 9:32:00 GMT -1
I grew up on the chalk hills of the Chilterns and have lived in various places over the years, but for the moment I live in Tel Aviv. Hi Rion I can't even imagine the change the true scale of the change that must have involved. Are you able to spend much time in the desert? I grew up listening to the tales of one of my more adventurous aunts who (in the 1970s) worked with the Bedouin of the Negev desert, trying to help them deal with the Zionist policy of ethnic cleansing there. * I wonder how the Negev has changed with the removal of most of the Bedouin flocks of goats - or perhaps those policies failed? Must be fascinating to live in a place with such a long written history! * Almost all the Negev was declared State Land, and it was made illegal for the Bedouin to live there. Other laws were brought in to curb goat grazing - including many brought in masquerading as conservation policies.
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Post by Francis on Oct 20, 2010 9:44:56 GMT -1
It is my impression that these actions have altered the understanding and effectiveness of the Genius Loci... What do you mean or imply by the 'effectiveness' of the Genius Loci? ...but interestingly, it appears to now be adapting to and with the continuing dynamic interactions as the natural processes, with guidance from the overseeing authorities, continue to develop. Interesting that you confidently describe the Genius Loci as adapting to the local ecological changes - i.e. that you identify the GL you are aware of there now with the same presence you felt there as a child. I think that's the position I hold - but I feel there's something more complicated about the continuity and development of SoP compared with that of humans - the concept of identity has angles to it that involved different perspectives to that of the maturing or translocated human...
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Post by Francis on Oct 20, 2010 10:06:55 GMT -1
All this shapes my view of where I live, as does its traditional Welsh-language culture, though these things are not always obviously complementary. We've touched on the implications of the human language of a place here before - at the time it was a tricky discussion I think there were people here for whom it was a sensitive issue and we didn't really get to grips with it. I think it's worth revisiting? The other feature of the area is that it is near the coast and so the very different ethos of sea and cliffs is also present. This, I find, requires more from me in getting to know it and being a part of it. I'm working on it. My wife has a very strong affinity with the sea and up until my mid-twenties so did I, but now I find it alomst impenetrable. I don't know why. I've always lived close to the sea but am never pulled that way. I like the idea of a small boat, doing a bit of fishing and throwing a few pots. I find it visually attractive, but I'm never 'spoken' to there - I can never feel the 'mood' I'm just blank. It's not something I'm working on at the moment - though I am trying to develop something with the nearby estuary, but not making much progress... Very weak circumstantial evidence of the two way nature of relationship with SoP??
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Post by redraven on Oct 21, 2010 9:14:45 GMT -1
What do you mean or imply by the 'effectiveness' of the Genius Loci? The "effectiveness" I refer to is the fact that the topography has changed due to human intervention, it's transformation being over a relatively short period of time with material not present before, now being present in the landscape. The "natural" progression of this material into the landscape would have taken a far longer period of time if left to elemental and climatic conditions, it's the speed and artificiality if you like, that human industrial activity created that has changed how the GL interacts. And I do believe that sometimes, the GL is not able to adapt and either leaves, gets absorbed (wrong word, but can't think of a better one at the minute) or has it's interactions with specific locations changed. RR
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Post by Lee on Oct 21, 2010 10:07:33 GMT -1
well, London.
I'm now living in Crystal Palace which is a relatively more open area of london to live in with a whopping great park just a few hundred yards away. all in all a nicer place to live.
all of that said, London seems to fall into one of 2 categories with regards to SoP/ungods:
1: the old parts of london, where the weight of ages is palpable, those areas of central london which have retained something; the alleys, windy roads and small courtyards between tall buldings. there is 'something' here though my guts tells me this is more of a human imprint that something holding on from before. some places feel different, but in the mian this is a human impression rather than an ungod one.
2: the less than central areas which have been developed, still old but developed to a rather modern state and lacking in 'spirit'. south kensington for instance.
i have my allotment on a friends land south of bromley which is for all intents and purposes a rural area and the feel is a world away; it is a 20 min bus ride to a busy part of london yet it could be rural kent for all you would know. in this kind of place the feel is of things carrying on as before. fields, lanes, trees and farmland. hell, you can even see stars at night! this to me is where the ungods are, or at least those whom it is possible to interact with.
all of this said - there is something about the Thames, something i am losing because i no longer have a visible journey over it these days as i use the tube. on aa daily basis i would pass over it and watch it's tides, the cormorants etc. as someone who passes under it and lives miles form it, it's pull, it's feel, it's ungods are slipping out of mind.
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Post by Heron on Oct 21, 2010 16:04:05 GMT -1
all of that said, London seems to fall into one of 2 categories with regards to SoP/ungods: 1: the old parts of london, where the weight of ages is palpable, those areas of central london which have retained something; the alleys, windy roads and small courtyards between tall buldings. there is 'something' here though my guts tells me this is more of a human imprint that something holding on from before. some places feel different, but in the mian this is a human impression rather than an ungod one. That is something like my experience when I lived in London. There are certainly some parts that have a 'depth' to them , while others feel 'shallow'. I lived for a time in Paris and remember one place there that had a really powerful feeling of something present. But whether that was a, 'ancestor' presence or a god presence, I have never been sure. Mmm , The Thames, yes that is certainly a powerful presence.
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Post by redraven on Oct 21, 2010 19:26:18 GMT -1
all of this said - there is something about the Thames, something i am losing because i no longer have a visible journey over it these days as i use the tube. on aa daily basis i would pass over it and watch it's tides, the cormorants etc. as someone who passes under it and lives miles form it, it's pull, it's feel, it's ungods are slipping out of mind. Which raises an interesting question. Rivers are dynamic forces whose interactions were and still are perceived by different people. But as a dynamic force, they are subject to change with their courses being altered through geographical interactions, such as land slips or later, human divertions, but what about areas where rivers once flowed but don't now? For example, the now defunct river Bytham, is there any remaining river based interactivity still present in the landscape or are these interactivities reliant upon a dynamic environment being created by the river by which to experience these interactions? RR
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Post by dreamguardian on Oct 22, 2010 11:01:06 GMT -1
I materialized into the world here! Football rivals- Hate them.... bastards!! ;D I think it maybe both ancestral & spiritual. Spiritual seems a strange word to associate with a major city yet it is there just drowned out by the shere human volume. I love living in rural Wales & City life is different. London is still a part of me, it's where I grew up & became a man. I lived close to the thames, could see it from my bedroom window & used to hang around it when I regulary bunked off school. The thames has a very strong spiritual pull for me too. It is magical. City & rural landscapes are different & therefore the SoP are different too. I seem to remember Lee wrote on his blog about a similar idea
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Post by potia on Oct 22, 2010 18:54:30 GMT -1
Even since we moved here though the area has changed with a whole new estate area being built up in the last couple of years. Do you feel the "mood" of the Place has changed, or that the Spirit of Place itself is now different? To be honest I don't think I know the spirits here well enough to be able to make judgement on that one. What I can say is that it seems to me that the spirit of place in the area where my house is built is a still a bit shell-shocked by what happened in the process of the area being changed from rural to suburb. I don't think it's fled but I think it is still a bit uncertain as to how to take all of this. That could be my own transference of how I might feel if my home was totally changed without so much as a please though so I can't really be sure.
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Post by Heron on Oct 28, 2010 12:43:32 GMT -1
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Post by redraven on Oct 28, 2010 17:22:18 GMT -1
I can only speak personally here, but that doesn't describe my own responses, interact yes, shape, no.
RR
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Post by Heron on Oct 28, 2010 19:13:48 GMT -1
I can only speak personally here, but that doesn't describe my own responses, interact yes, shape, no. RR It doesn't describe my own response exactly as quoted here (you need to take the statement you quote and the one following it as a pair. But I was, anyway, describing the human response generically rather than personally. Personally my emotional response is for the wild; but if I didn't have a house to live in ....
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Post by redraven on Oct 28, 2010 19:59:36 GMT -1
It doesn't describe my own response exactly as quoted here (you need to take the statement you quote and the one following it as a pair. But I was, anyway, describing the human response generically rather than personally. Historically maybe, but generically? I've read what you wrote and the context, maybe it's just my own changing perspectives and experiences that are colouring my response here. Personally my emotional response is for the wild; but if I didn't have a house to live in .... Yes, I agree, but then again, that house and the modern world continues to shape our perceptions in ways not available before, which to me is fascinating in itself. RR
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