Rosmerta

[nellie]

Does anybody know much about Her?
The internet seems to only repeat what is mentioned of Rosmerta in Miranda Green's dictionary of celtic myth and legend.
Did the Romans bring Her to Britain paired with Mercury? Green's dictionary says that there is good reason to believe that Rosmerta was a deity in Her own right, quite seperate to the following of Mercury, and that in Britain depictions of Her survive in the south west of England. Was her worship restricted to these areas is it known?

I'm intrigued by Her bucket! What does it symbolise? Green's dictionary puts forward that it could be something akin to the cauldron of rebirth... but it doesn't look very rebirthy
It mentions that in one depiction Rosmerta holds a ladle over the wooden bucket. (Gloucester) According to the same entry Rosmerta is shown on a relief from Bath with Fortuna where Rosmerta holds a downwards pointing torch to Fortuna's upright torch.

Are there any other sources of evidence for Rosmerta?

[megli]

Lots. She's a divinity of abundance, so the bucket/pail is to do with her doling liquid out to distribute. It looks like a typical Celtic mixing bucket---it may also be intended to contain the water used to dilute wine, hence the ladle. (Ancient wine was drunk mixed with water.) Green has a bad habit of reading ancient iconography in terms of medieval Welsh literature---you note yourself, nellie, exactly why this is sometimes a bit forced!

Her cult was concentrated in e. Gaul, from Burgundy up to the Rhineland, judging from inscriptions, and it's likely from this region that it was brought to Roman Britain. Note that the bucket is a specifically British piece of imagery: continental depictions of her usually give her a smaller vessel of some kind.

The name is interesting. Ro = 'exceeding, great, -plus' as a prefix, and the root *(s)mer- has to do with 'provision' but also with 'foresight'---she is therefore 'the Great PROvisioner' and 'the Great PRE-visioner', a goddess of abundance and sharing out but also perhaps of taking thought for the future.

'Mercury' in a Gallo-Roman context is pretty likely to be Lugus, though this can't be established definitively.

[nellie]

Does this mean She would have been thought of as a goddess of wine? (or liquor induced states that produce visions? )

If the Romans brought her worship across the water with Mercury is it likely that she had a British counterpart in the same way Mercury is equated with Lugus? Or is it more likely that Rosmerta was welcomed because Lugus was already an important god?

Green links the two torches of Rosmerta/Fortuna with life and death. Does this sound right or is it too simplistic? I'm not aware that Fortuna had links to life/death? I've tried to find a picture of the relief but can't find one
While looking around the internet there was some UPG suggestion this linked to the underworld and death, but does this really fit (Unless in a sort of female Barleycorn kinda way)?

[megli]

Jan 8, 2011 9:32:00 GMT -1 nellie said:

Does this mean She would have been thought of as a goddess of wine? (or liquor induced states that produce visions? )

If the Romans brought her worship across the water with Mercury is it likely that she had a British counterpart in the same way Mercury is equated with Lugus? Or is it more likely that Rosmerta was welcomed because Lugus was already an important god?

Well, the same principle applies here: Mercury prob = Lugus, who was worshipped here too (as the existence of Lleu < Lugus tells us.) In both the Bath and Gloucester images she has the 'Celtic' Mercury (~Lugus) beside her.

As for wine---that's not explicit, and I might say that the soundbite-idea of someone being 'a goddess of X' is in general rather too simplistic---pre-Christian deities usually have a complicated nexus of associations and attributes, cult-titles and imagery, symbolism and mythic stories, changing over time and no doubt with different emphases in different places, etc.

There is some suggestion that she may have a sovereignty aspect, as the giving of drink was an important part of the mythic complex of sovereignty. Also there is a suggestive early Irish text in which king Conn of the Hundred Battles comes across an otherworldly man on a throne and a crowned woman; the man is Lug (=Lugus) and the woman is the Sovereignty of Ireland; she has an ale-vat and a ladle and a dipper. It is rather suggestive, at least.

Jan 8, 2011 9:32:00 GMT -1 nellie said:

Green links the two torches of Rosmerta/Fortuna with life and death. Does this sound right or is it too simplistic? I'm not aware that Fortuna had links to life/death? I've tried to find a picture of the relief but can't find one
While looking around the internet there was some UPG suggestion this linked to the underworld and death, but does this really fit (Unless in a sort of female Barleycorn kinda way)?

Gawd knows.

[megli]

But in general I think Rosmerta is exactly the kind of solid Romano-British goddess that Brython should be exploring. We know she was worshipped here; it's likely she was worshipped here as a consort-figure of Lugus/Lleu (if 2 and 2 are put together you will see one reason why I am scathing on the idea of honouring Blodeuwedd as a 'Brythonic goddess'...), whom we like; she has distinct imagery and attributes to work with.

[nellie]

I've been digging around a bit and there's lots of places on the net that equate Rosmerta as Fortuna - any reason to believe this is true except that they appear together a few times?

I also found this
[http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/Ocattle.htm]
which seems to show Rosmerta churning milk. Any thoughts on this? I can't find any actual photographs of the image though.

[nellie]

Ak, sorry - seems I lack the common sense to add a link in correctly!

[deiniol]

Rosmerta. Hmm.

The etymology of the name, as megli says, is generally accepted to mean something like "the great provider" or "the great foreseer". The two etyma need not be in discord (i.e. the name doesn't necessarily have to mean one thing or another): Michael Enright makes a rather pertinent connection between a woman offering drink and prophecy in the religions of northern Europe. I think it's highly likely that we're looking at another instantiation of the "sovereignty complex" here, particularly given her linkage with Mercury~Lugus.

Interestingly, back in the 70s a Gaulish bowl was found in the Auvergne region of France with the inscription e[...]o ieuri rigani rosmertiac, which has frequently been translated as "I offered this to the queen and Rosmerta." Personally, I'm dubious: the lexemes are all correctly translated, but not the inflection. Xavier Delamarre translates it "he offered this to the queen at the festival of Rosmerta," which makes somewhat more sense (-i is highly unlikely to be a 1st person singular desinence.) However, the dative singular of Gaulish -ī and -ā stems is -ai, not -i: I'm thinking that rigani is nominative, the sense being "the queen offered this at the festival of Rosmerta." If I'm right, what we have here is a queen offering a drinking vessel at a celebration dedicated to Rosmerta. An interesting correspondence to Enright's point.

[crowman]

drink and prophecy huh.... one leading to the other maybe???

[megli]

Jan 8, 2011 19:54:07 GMT -1 deiniol said:

Rosmerta. Hmm.

Interestingly, back in the 70s a Gaulish bowl was found in the Auvergne region of France with the inscription e[...]o ieuri rigani rosmertiac, which has frequently been translated as "I offered this to the queen and Rosmerta." Personally, I'm dubious: the lexemes are all correctly translated, but not the inflection. Xavier Delamarre translates it "he offered this to the queen at the festival of Rosmerta," which makes somewhat more sense (-i is highly unlikely to be a 1st person singular desinence.) However, the dative singular of Gaulish -ī and -ā stems is -ai, not -i: I'm thinking that rigani is nominative, the sense being "the queen offered this at the festival of Rosmerta." If I'm right, what we have here is a queen offering a drinking vessel at a celebration dedicated to Rosmerta. An interesting correspondence to Enright's point.

Cute!

[Rion]

Deiniol, whenever I think of Rosmerta I think of your story about the underworld where you mentioned her pouring out the sacred mead brewed from the well of Nixtonos (logodaedalic.blogspot.com/2010/04/journey-to-otherworld.html). Always found that interesting.

[nellie]

I had a read of the story of King Conn and see what Megli points out
The scepter Rosmerta sometimes holds would also be a sign of soveriegnty too wouldn't it?
As to sovereignty goddesses in general, is there reason to believe they are the same goddess known by local names, or that Britain was seen to have a group of sovereignty goddesses, just as Ireland did? (hard polytheism, soft polytheism, squidgey polytheism... the more I know the less I feel sure about anything!!!) Would it be fair to say that sovereignty goddesses were very closely linked to the tribe, almost in the way of an ancestor god?

In regards to the meaning of 'Rosmerta' - could it be that it was supposed to mean both things at once? The celtic peoples were know (I think?) for their fondness of riddles and word play - could the names they chose to give their deities reflect this?

[megli]

Yes to the double meaning Nellie---that was absolutely Deiniol's point. It's not an either/or

[nellie]

Oh... I knew that's exactly what he meant ;D hee!


...ahem

[Lee]

so i had a ponder on this earlier and had lightbulb moment - literally, as i was off to tesco to pick up some lightbulbs - following on from a discussion about ritual at Brython meetings; a woman fills the cup with drink, hands to the host who then passes it around the gathered people. In this situation, would the woman be acting as Rosmerta in a way? handing the drink to the host/king/sovereign? this would tie in with the provider role and also the sovereignty complex?

As megli has said, this is a goddess who we can get a lot about and is someone we should be looking to interact with. this has kind of got me thinking how this can be done and i am wondering if working her into devotional work when it comes the libation.

now, one last thing for Deiniol and Megli whose comparative mythological knowledge is greater when it comes to all things IE; who if anyone would She be most likely associated with in something like the Rig veda or other surviving mythological or liturgical works? Soma sprang to mind as the drink and deity embodying the drink itself and what if confers upon the drinker, but this seemed to be perhaps labouring the drink/provider things a bit too much.

[deiniol]

Jan 9, 2011 22:16:13 GMT -1 Lee said:

so i had a ponder on this earlier and had lightbulb moment - literally, as i was off to tesco to pick up some lightbulbs - following on from a discussion about ritual at Brython meetings; a woman fills the cup with drink, hands to the host who then passes it around the gathered people. In this situation, would the woman be acting as Rosmerta in a way? handing the drink to the host/king/sovereign? this would tie in with the provider role and also the sovereignty complex?

Spot on. That's where the image comes from.

now, one last thing for Deiniol and Megli whose comparative mythological knowledge is greater when it comes to all things IE; who if anyone would She be most likely associated with in something like the Rig veda or other surviving mythological or liturgical works? Soma sprang to mind as the drink and deity embodying the drink itself and what if confers upon the drinker, but this seemed to be perhaps labouring the drink/provider things a bit too much.

It's really in Celtic myth that the "sovereignty complex" is most highly developed. The idea of the sovereignty being "contained" in an intoxicating beverage, dispensed by the sovereignty goddess, appears most clearly, which subsequently spread to the speakers of Proto-Germanic. As such, cognates for this particular "mytheme" are (to my knowledge) somewhat wanting outside the north-west of Europe.

(Yeah, when I first discovered this idea I immediately thought of Soma as well. It doesn't really work though, unfortunately. I have a suspicion that this early association is what lies behind my UPG associating Meduana/Rosmerta and the moon, though, as Soma and the moon-god Candra were conflated in later Hindu thought.)

[Lee]

OK, cool well that is good for me - it clarifies things and offers a way inot incorporating Her into devotional work. it is also nice to see my thinking is at least heading in the right directions sometimes

[Lee]

As a brief aside, as her name is gallo-Roman, is there a 'romano-british' or brythonic rendering of her name? not necessarily attested but 'theoretical'?

[deiniol]

The contemporary form used in Britain at the time would have been Rosmertā, same as the Gaulish.