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Post by nellie on Jan 12, 2011 9:54:34 GMT -1
How relevant is the bard/ovate/druid system to us today as a spiritual framework? In most places I've looked for contempary druidry (and please remember that I'm not somebody with experience of druidry other than a recent interest!) seem to think it necessary to start off learning to be a bard, before then moving on to the study of an ovate etc. I find this irksome. While poetry and song, and herb craft etc are noble pursuits do they necessarily have to be part of the set framework for contempary 'celtic' or brythonic spirituality? Is there a real need to be master of all these areas?I've worded this badly I can see on re-reading, but can't think how to make myself clearer. I'm not saying that the bard for example, has no role in celtic or brythonic spiritualy, rather questioning if it's a necessary requirement for everybody (as many druidy places seem to suggest). I write poetry on occasion (read it more often) and have been a member of a choir in the long distant past. But I wouldn't consider myself to be particularly good at either poetry or singing. My interests don't lay in this area and similarly there are surely people that aren't much interested in healing plants and ecosystems that might be considered the province of the (O)vate. I think it was the OBOD (  ) site I was looking at, but I may be getting mixed up, in which it is suggested that you start the druid spiritual path by learning poetry construction. I enjoyed studying poetry while I was at school, but it's not something that gets me going any more, and it certainly doesn't make me feel all spiritual. Even if it was the correct course of study to our iron-age ancestors, does that mean it is also the correct course of study for us today? I've read the various threads on brython's views of the term 'druid', but how do you all feel about 'bard' and 'vate'? Are they stepping stones/stages of a path or seperate and distinct paths? (As is probably clear I'm more inclined to go with the latter ;D) Bards, Vates, and Druids get historical mention, that much is generally known. But do historical records show how these roles fit together? |
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 12, 2011 11:25:31 GMT -1
How relevant is the bard/ovate/druid system to us today as a spiritual framework? I am not a priest, a king, a ruler , a politician , hold a position of government or have any responsibility for a community. Neither am I a counsellor or advisor to any of the above. Therefore, for me, bard/ovate/druid system has no relevance what so ever as part of a spiritual framework. |
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Post by megli on Jan 12, 2011 11:37:23 GMT -1
Unless you aspire to being a member of a set of connected privileged professional castes (which is what B/V/D were) then I'd say they are not relevant.
In Irish terms, we're all a bóaire, a 'cow-noble' literally, but basically meaning 'independent householder with families and various responsibilities.'
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Post by nellie on Jan 12, 2011 12:40:01 GMT -1
Cow-noble? :-)
Cow as in moo? Is there anything that corresponds in Welsh or Brythonic? (Just out of interest!) Would the owning of a cow indicate a household's independance or am on the wrong page altogether?
Why is there no mention of this sort of thing in popular druidry? (Is popular druidry the term I want?) Why is it infered that you need to fit into the 3 tier box? Is there a point I'm missing entirely?
Still, I'm relieved to hear your answers about the bard/ovate/druid thing. Relief is an odd response no! Lol! It's nice (nice is such a useless word, but never mind) to find somewhere where you don't have to force square pegs into round holes.
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Post by Adam on Jan 12, 2011 13:07:04 GMT -1
I'm still actively involved in the British Druid Order, though I do not use the title or regard myself as a Druid... I do consider my path not a million miles away from being druidic in the most general sense of the word... the difficulty I have is that Druidry is a religion where everyone has a title... I prefer the terms bard, ovate etc to describe activities... you do not have to be a Bard to be engaged in bardic activity... indeed, to be recognised as a Bard implies a community that confers that recognition, not a self-styling (if we had a nomination system I would be inclined to nominate Heron as Brython's Bard for example)
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Post by Rion on Jan 12, 2011 13:14:23 GMT -1
(if we had a nomination system I would be inclined to nominate Heron as Brython's Bard for example) He'd certainly be much better at it than Cacofonix! And I wholeheartedly agree with what dreamguardian said above. |
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Post by megli on Jan 12, 2011 13:47:13 GMT -1
Cow-noble? :-) Cow as in moo? Is there anything that corresponds in Welsh or Brythonic? (Just out of interest!) Would the owning of a cow indicate a household's independance or am on the wrong page altogether? Moo indeed. It means you're not an aristo (of the top rank) nor a slave, but a kind of middle-ranking commoner, free but dependent in a relationship of 'clientship' on your local petty king. He gives you cows (which he and the other aristos basically rustle from nearby peoples), and you return to him a render of food (dairy products, meat, cereals) and livestock over a period. But the point I'm making is that we at Brython would be (in the intensely hierarchical terms of ancient Celtic society) medium-ranking free persons---NOT members of the privileged castes, and therefore by definition not druids. Why is there no mention of this sort of thing in popular druidry? (Is popular druidry the term I want?) Why is it infered that you need to fit into the 3 tier box? Because pretending to be druids was a bad idea of overheated 18th and 19th C Romantic primitivists who'd read too much Caesar, and somehow now we're stuck with it.... |
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Post by potia on Jan 12, 2011 14:30:05 GMT -1
The Bard, Ovate and Druid thing is very much part of the neo-druidry scene and for all that I am still a member of the Druid Network and have my roots in OBOD it's not something I feel has a place in Brython in any way.
We all have our own strengths and weaknesses and we turn to whoever seems the best suited to what we need when we need information, advice or simply a bit of reassurance and the virtual equivalent of a hug.
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Post by megli on Jan 12, 2011 14:32:10 GMT -1
I'd second that. You are the Hugmistress, Potia!  |
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Post by Lee on Jan 12, 2011 14:51:34 GMT -1
i will third what Potia has said; people have different strengths and we should support those rather than push them through something they neither want or are capable at (cruel word use, but my head is fuzzy). I hated having to go through the bardic grade at OBOD, i quit half way through because i simply found it unbearably dull and without merit.
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Post by crowman on Jan 12, 2011 15:04:23 GMT -1
I began with obod and very quickly came to the conclusion that obod is basically 19th century romanticism at it's very best (or worst) I looked at the bard training and found nothing of interest to me... Luckily I found Brython shortly after... I see no real point in me labelling myself bard ovate or druid, I'm not any of those things... herbs and self sufficient gardening interest me but that's as far as it goes.
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Post by Heron on Jan 12, 2011 15:15:18 GMT -1
I'd second that. You are the Hugmistress, Potia! Indeed Rion, I'll certainly try to keep the example of Cacofonix before me (or at least behind me  And thank you Adam for the nomination. I'll venture - pace Megli - to moo as melodically as I can  Nellie, as one who underwent 'training' in OBOD in the time of Ross Nichols, it wasn't then required that an individual followed quite such a specific programme as now, which, I think, is more to to with constructing a 'course' that can be offered than it is any sort of conviction as to what is essential. In those days guided meditation and study of the Kaballah were more to the fore; these things change and are to some extent an arbitrary extension of the 'teacher'. I would, anyway, endorse what others have said that there is no necessary connection between Druidry and what we are doing in Brython. |
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Post by potia on Jan 12, 2011 15:31:51 GMT -1
I'd second that. You are the Hugmistress, Potia! ROFLOL - I wondered what I was the mistress of |
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Post by nellie on Jan 13, 2011 7:44:20 GMT -1
Heron, your point about the way the OBOD study has changed is interesting. I have read snippets of Carr-Gom talking about putting the course together. I guess he's shaped neo-druidry in a really big way. ... and is there anywhere I can listen to your melodic mooing?  |
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Post by Tegernacus on Jan 13, 2011 12:21:00 GMT -1
Modern druidry is very much a product of PGC's time, if not specifically the man himself. It's very... hippy... in all its shapes and forms. 60s druidry. There is post-PGC druidry, ie Restall-Orr, which is very much 80's/90s druidry - more anarchic (as long as you follow cult of personality). I guess Brython is post-Restall-Orr druidry, 21st century, realism based, and very cynical (if I am allowed to distinguish in that way).
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Post by Tegernacus on Jan 13, 2011 12:23:49 GMT -1
and yeah, while I don't doubt the spiritual conviction of Obodies, it is very much created as a product, one that you consume. They could put their "knowledge" in a book, charge a tenner for it, and bingo. Except there is far more money in a partwork, and the customer feels like they are buying into some deep "mystery" religion if they are drip-fed it.
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Post by crowman on Jan 13, 2011 13:44:16 GMT -1
and yeah, while I don't doubt the spiritual conviction of Obodies, it is very much created as a product, one that you consume. They could put their "knowledge" in a book, charge a tenner for it, and bingo. Except there is far more money in a partwork, and the customer feels like they are buying into some deep "mystery" religion if they are drip-fed it. They are currently charging £135 for the bard grade... The only mysetery is how i fell for it...I still cant believe i parted with the initial £35. The documents are very nicely done but really its just PCG's take on neo druidism... no mystery really.... |
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Post by dreamguardian on Jan 13, 2011 14:13:15 GMT -1
They are currently charging £135 for the bard grade... The only mysetery is how i fell for it...I still cant believe i parted with the initial £35. The documents are very nicely done but really its just PCG's take on neo druidism... no mystery really.... It's gone down in price!! Ovate grade is very much Missus C Mathews with little content. If someone is happy with spending a fortune & get something out of it, then all well & good. I just feel I got ripped off & learnt nothing spiritual, cultural or secular of the Druids & peoples of Britain. |
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Post by potia on Jan 13, 2011 14:32:10 GMT -1
They are currently charging £135 for the bard grade... The only mysetery is how i fell for it...I still cant believe i parted with the initial £35. The documents are very nicely done but really its just PCG's take on neo druidism... no mystery really.... It's gone down in price!! Ovate grade is very much Missus C Mathews with little content. If someone is happy with spending a fortune & get something out of it, then all well & good. I just feel I got ripped off & learnt nothing spiritual, cultural or secular of the Druids & peoples of Britain. Now, now Actually both bardic and ovate have been revised since I did them and they are much improved, not that I forked out for the new stuff but I have seen it. |
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) site I was looking at, but I may be getting mixed up, in which it is suggested that you start the druid spiritual path by learning poetry construction. I enjoyed studying poetry while I was at school, but it's not something that gets me going any more, and it certainly doesn't make me feel all spiritual. 
And thank you Adam for the nomination. I'll venture - pace Megli - to moo as melodically as I can 
