Imbolc and Goddesses

[nellie]

Hi all,

This year Imbolc has taken on a more personal meaning for me and for the first time I want to mark it properly.

I've been thinking about how I want to do this. Bridget of course is always been linked to Imbolc but I've never had any pull towards Bridget - probably why Imbolc has never been all that important to me.

I've also been thinking and re-reading Potia's story about Rigantona, and Rigantona/Rhiannon (whom I do have emotional ties to) in a Persophone type roll makes more and more sense to me. Which leaves me with the logical assumption that Imbolc would then be the time that Rigantona starts Her return to the land, bringing life in Her wake. This is what make sense to me.

At which point I have a problem - whom do I honour at Imbolc? The traditional of Briganti, or the UPG of Rigantona??
The idea of Rigantona forming some sort of triad of soveriegnty goddesses was mentioned in an earlier thread, and it was something I kept thinking about as it struck a chord with me. Rigantona (my own UPG is that Epona and Rigantona are one and the same)and Rosmerta seem like very plausible candidates.
But my ponderings on Imbolc make me wonder about Briganti. The Land, Sea & Sky link that Potia posted mentions Bride's wand having possible links to soveriegnty, and I've also come across a few scanty mentions of Briganti as a sovereignty goddess but in these cases there is nothing to back up the statement so I can't gage why the conclusion has been reached.
Evidently She was/is an important deity but is it likely that Briganti was/is a sovereignty goddess?

[megli]

Absolutely yes, I should think. Several peoples named themselves after her (or after connected versions of a similar deity)--the British Brigantes, the Irish ones, and there were some continental ones too. If you go around calling yourself 'The People of Briganti' I think it's fairly likely she was your goddess of territorial sovereignty. She's a river goddess too, as the Brent and the Braint (both < *Briganti) indicate, and, most deliciously, the Welsh word for 'king' (Modern brenin, Middle Welsh brenhin, Old Welsh breenhin) comes from *Brigantinos, which would appear to mean 'Husband of Briganti', according to the usual king-marries-Sovereignty-goddess idea. So yes---I think she was a sovereignty goddess. [NB from what follows: Deiniol disagrees].

Your problem is an interesting one for Brython. We know so little about the cultural and religious worldview of the Ancient Brits to whom we are supposedly looking, that I wonder if it isn't just a tad solipsistic to say 'it just doesn't do it for me' (sorry to put it so crudely) about one of the few reasonably secure things---the celebration of Briganti in early spring? In other words, I suspect an ancient Brit would say *the gods need to be honoured at their proper festivals* and one's *feelings* about that are just not that relevant. The idea that the gods are somehow there at bottom to entertain us (and I know this isn't what you were saying yourself, Nellie, but this idea is hugely prevalent in neopaganism generally), that is, to interest us, move us, give us 'connection' or 'exquisite inspiration', *to stop us feeling bored* or make us feel important---it's one of the more bankrupt ideas floating around the Pagan world. I suspect ancient pagans would have found it hard to comprehend, but it depends on the size of the cultural group I suppose. If you lived in a multicultural megalopolis like Rome in the 4nd century, then yes, you could pick and choose whichever religious tradition or deity appealed to you: Mithraism, the worship of Serapis or Isis, Christianity, Judaism, Orphism, the Mysteries of the Magna Mater etc. I doubt that would be the case in the small-scale, ethnically homogenous pastoral and agrarian communities of pre-Roman Britain. (Under Rome it's a different matter, and Isis and various eastern deities were worshipped in London; Mithras was important among soldiers.)

So---you might not be interested in celebrating Briganti at Imbolc: but that's no guarantee she's not interested in being celebrated by you

[Heron]

I think Megli makes a crucial point here about the way we choose to acknowledge the gods. We are, of course, still putting elements of common practice together, and therefore would tend to concentrate on our preferred deities. If, as Megli puts it, *the gods need to be honoured at their proper festivals* then it should simply be a matter of following the seasonal cycle and doing this. But there has been some discussion, not always conclusive, as to when these seasonal times are. With Brigid, however, the Imbolc associations are, I think, pretty well established.

Nellie, you were discussing recently developing a practice for your home. Does it help to think of Brigid as a protectress of the Hearth?

[nellie]

Lots to think about there...

I think my main problem is maybe that I'd feel a bit of a sham to 'celebrate' a goddess, in this case Briganti, that I have no relationship with while there is a goddess that I DO have a relationship with that seems to fit in with the rejuvination of the earth at this time. Possibly all this means is that I need to start forming a relationship with Briganti (I'm not saying such relationships need to be close ones - but it seems akin to going upto a stranger in the street and giving them a hug for me to only revere Briganti at Imbolc)? I'm certainly comfortable with Briganti as the protector of the hearth and therefore the home, and maybe the way to go is to address Her during my porridge offerings for the household spirits.

I think also part of my problem is wondering if it is disrespectful of Rhiannon (or Rigantona - sorry I just can't shift that perception of Her being Rhiannon!) to suddenly turn to Briganti at Imbolc..?
As you say there is actual evidence that ties Briganti to Imbolc, and I'd be a complete doofus to ignore that. Which is why I started wondering about the triple goddess thing. Bridget is commonly described as a triple goddess, generally all named Bridget. I was wondering if it is possible that as a triple goddess She wasn't always Bridget, Bridget and Bridget? Is it just utter fantasty to wonder if there could be any ties at all between Briganti and a descending goddess that Rigantona might have been? Though I know the Mabinogion isn't a great guide to go by, Rhiannon is taken from the world and the earth becomes barren. Briganti is sometimes called the goddess reborn at spring... Are any of my thought processes making any sense? Both seem to fulfill similar roles which is why I'm wondering about the idea that was raised of a triad.
In a slightly different vein I'm guessing that Briganti might not have been equally as important to all of the various tribes which would account for different goddesses performing similar functions? Would Briganti and Rigantona have been contemparies? (Don't you hate those moments when you realise how very little you know!)

[Adam]

Jan 18, 2011 12:07:21 GMT -1 nellie said:

(Don't you hate those moments when you realise how very little you know!)

No, I love them ... they are so often precursors to those "aha" moments (and I'm looking forward to one now) ;D

[deiniol]

I'm somewhat confused, nellie: are you talking about the third branch here? It's not Rhiannon's disappearance that makes Dyfed barren, but Llwyd ap Cil Coed's curse upon Rhiannon for the insult done to Gwawl.

A misdeed of Rhiannon making world barren does not necessarily mean that she was a deity of vegetation or growth or fertility and should therefore be celebrated at the beginning of spring. Everything else about her indicates that she was a <i>sovereignty</i> goddess: sovereignty is (in my opinion) essentially the right of a people to make use of and live on a piece of land. Cursing the sovereignty goddess removes this right: the land becomes barren not because "growth" (or whatever) is gone from it, as in winter, but because the tribe has lost the right to till it.

I'm with Megli on this one (although I disagree with his perception of Briganti as a sovereignty goddess!): it doesn't really matter what we think, festivals are festivals and they have their own proper deities. We know of so few that it seems profligate to ignore one just because it "feels right".

Also, for what it's worth, we do have a festival which we can be fairly sure was connected with Rigantona: the Eponalia in December.

[Heron]

Jan 18, 2011 12:07:21 GMT -1 nellie said:

I think also part of my problem is wondering if it is disrespectful of Rhiannon (or Rigantona - sorry I just can't shift that perception of Her being Rhiannon!) to suddenly turn to Briganti at Imbolc..?

While *Rigantona is the name of the reconstructed Brythonic goddess, Rhiannon is the modern version of the same name, so I think it's perfectly alright to call her Rhiannon - as I do - and reserve Rigantona for more formal modes of address.

The point about polytheism is that there are multiple deities requiring our attention. I think the feeling that it might be disrespectful to one deity to pay attention to another probably comes from monotheistic religion. Certainly the ancients had ideas about gods occasionally getting jealous, but the idea of one deity requiring sole allegiance is, I think, mainly a feature of the so-called 'Abrahamic' religions.

As you say there is actual evidence that ties Briganti to Imbolc, and I'd be a complete doofus to ignore that. Which is why I started wondering about the triple goddess thing. Bridget is commonly described as a triple goddess, generally all named Bridget. I was wondering if it is possible that as a triple goddess She wasn't always Bridget, Bridget and Bridget?

The problem here is that there is a christian saint, based on an actual person, who seems to have been conflated with a pre-chrisdtian goddess of the same name. Bridget then gets called 'Mary of the Gael' which seems to be a bit more than your common or garden saint and nearer to goddess status. The 'triple goddess' attribution here seems to be different to the idea of a triple goddess as put forward by Robert Graves and alighted upon by wiccans (Maid-Mother-Crone), but suggests different aspects of her character.

Is it just utter fantasty to wonder if there could be any ties at all between Briganti and a descending goddess that Rigantona might have been? Though I know the Mabinogion isn't a great guide to go by, Rhiannon is taken from the world and the earth becomes barren. Briganti is sometimes called the goddess reborn at spring... Are any of my thought processes making any sense? Both seem to fulfill similar roles which is why I'm wondering about the idea that was raised of a triad.

I certainly find that story in the Third Branch where Rhiannon disappears from the world to be suggestive, mixed up as it is with the 'Waste Land' theme (though Dyfed is not actually 'waste' so much as undomesticated). So I do think of her in some respects as 'absent' during the Winter months, just as the scene in the First Branch when she comes riding out of the Otherworld on a white horse in pursuit of her chosen husband is suggestive of fertility in May in a more developed way than the potential of fertility at Imbolc. I don't see these as developed myths so much as themes. But what they suggest is the stuff of mythology.

In a slightly different vein I'm guessing that Briganti might not have been equally as important to all of the various tribes which would account for different goddesses performing similar functions? Would Briganti and Rigantona have been contemparies? (Don't you hate those moments when you realise how very little you know!)

I think we have to learn to live with not knowing things, but work with what makes sense to us in terms of what little we can know, what is 'real' in terms of our own perceptions of the mythos, and what we can meaningfully create for our own common practice.
A bit like what John Keats called 'negative capability': "when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason". If we want to reconstruct Brythonic paganism today we need to be negatively capable in that way.

[crowman]

Ive had quite a few aha moments since joining cf but unfortunately more d'oh moments to date. Im afraid if im honest bridget doesnt do much for me (but then again neither does rhiannon) Briganti to me feels like a northern goddess, is there evidence to show she was a countrywide, trans-tribe goddess?

Rigatona/Epona ive already met and is firmly a part of my UPG, but im yet to meet Briganti, is it at all possible that different tribes knew her by different names? Or is Briganti associated with imbolc and thats just the way it is?

[megli]

Well...not only the territory of the Brigantes but also the names Brent and Braint suggest she was fairly widespread across Britain---or that lots of people had a rivery goddess called 'Lofty Lady'. (Brigantia is called 'dea nympha' in one Cumberland inscription, which suggests that even oop north she had a watery aspect----very different to the fiery associations of Brigit, which I find a little dubious.)

[nellie]

Deiniol - yes sorry i was being very vague in my reference to Rhiannon. I was talking about the third branch, though only in a very general sense. In my defense (heehee) I was trying to go along the lines of thinking about the broad theme of a goddess that leaves the world and as a result the earth loses its fertility, rather than the details - maybe that's shooting myself in the foot lol! Too much reading of Greek myth as a child perhaps? ;D

"Everything else about her indicates that she was a <i>sovereignty</i> goddess: sovereignty is (in my opinion) essentially the right of a people to make use of and live on a piece of land. Cursing the sovereignty goddess removes this right: the land becomes barren not because "growth" (or whatever) is gone from it, as in winter, but because the tribe has lost the right to till it." -
I feel the haze starting to clear! In a few days I'm going to understand this better... It clears up a lot of my conflicts actually. I wasn't seeing that subtle difference between the bringer of fertility and, as you say, the right to make use of that fertility. (Aha! - Adam )
Thanks for the input, that's really helped a lot!

[potia]

Nellie,

Ever thought that perhaps being guided here is Rigantona's subtle way of getting you to try interacting with some of the other Brythonic deities? A bit like a freind taking you to a party to meet some of her other freinds because she's pretty sure you are going to hit it off well with some of them.

[megli]

Jan 18, 2011 12:07:21 GMT -1 nellie said:

Possibly all this means is that I need to start forming a relationship with Briganti (I'm not saying such relationships need to be close ones - but it seems akin to going upto a stranger in the street and giving them a hug for me to only revere Briganti at Imbolc)?

It's helpful to remember she's not a big person, a kind of woman on a gigantic invisible scale. She's a goddess, and 'personality' (likes, dislikes, feelings, preferences) are only metaphors drawn from our own humanity to apply to the altogether more mysterious ontology of the gods. This is a very, very strange and uncanny area: the gods to me are a kind of real illusion (cf. Hindu 'maya') that emerges from the place where natural phenomena set up and are reinforced and haloed by ancient archetypal reverberations deep within the human psyche. I know that's opaque, but I can't find a way to express it better. Sorry.

[nellie]

I took so long to post my last reply that there were 3 other replies by the time I hit 'reply'!

Heron - I see what you mean about Abrahmic faith. Which is odd in that I wasn't raised that way at all. I suppose it's pretty insiduous in our culture. I'm still finding my feet in so many ways and I hadn't thought of it in that light.
Negative capability - gosh that's going to be a long lesson I predict!

Potia, I think you've hit the nail on the head I was just about to type almost precisely that when I scrolled down and saw your reply I guess I'd better just go with free-fall and see what happens!

[nellie]

Megli I had to go google 'maya' before I could attempt a responce. I'm not sure a brief googling really equates to understanding in this case but I grasp the basics.
I understand what you mean when you talk of our human understanding translating into such means as we understand, (at least I think that was what you meant?) but I'm struggling with the last bit, like I wrestle to understand Shakespear
When you say 'emerges from a place' do you mean a physical place or a sort of dreamtime place?

[dreamguardian]

Jan 18, 2011 13:45:29 GMT -1 Heron said:

The point about polytheism is that there are multiple deities requiring our attention. I think the feeling that it might be disrespectful to one deity to pay attention to another probably comes from monotheistic religion. Certainly the ancients had ideas about gods occasionally getting jealous, but the idea of one deity requiring sole allegiance is, I think, mainly a feature of the so-called 'Abrahamic' religions.

I agree & fits in with a seperate post about a personal 'patron' deity. At different times in our life our focus is in different areas & it's the same with the gods (atleast for me). At different times & circumstances, my focus & attention is on certain deities and of course this too changes. I perceive no disloyalty in any of this.

[crowman]

what about tribes that have no river deities associated with briganti? im pretty sure the river severn played a huge part in the lives of the dobunni but i can only find a dubious inscription to sabrina which may or may not be a romanised version... Megli you say she's a goddess, and 'personality' (likes, dislikes, feelings, preferences) presuming that Imbolc was a countrywide festival then presumably tribes with no references to a fiery or a watery briganti would have substituted her for their deity of choice? This is where i get confused... briganti means high one, so surely she's the goddess everyone would have recognised on a countrywide scale... so why hardly any reference down south and lots of reference oop north?

[megli]

Jan 18, 2011 15:03:32 GMT -1 @crowman said:

what about tribes that have no river deities associated with briganti? im pretty sure the river severn played a huge part in the lives of the dobunni but i can only find a dubious inscription to sabrina which may or may not be a romanised version... Megli you say she's a goddess, and 'personality' (likes, dislikes, feelings, preferences) presuming that Imbolc was a countrywide festival then presumably tribes with no references to a fiery or a watery briganti would have substituted her for their deity of choice? This is where i get confused... briganti means high one, so surely she's the goddess everyone would have recognised on a countrywide scale... so why hardly any reference down south and lots of reference oop north?

There's little evidence for Imbolc being celebrated in Britain (as opposed to Ireland), but there the connection with Briganti is very strong (and the Irish Brigantes may have been emigres from the British ones.)

I don't see that there's a logical connection between her being called 'Exalted' and being recognised by *everyone* (which I never argued, incidentally). She seems to have been especially the goddess of the Brigantes, as their name suggests---a very important people---but was worshipped elsewhere as well, including elsewhere in the Celtic-speaking world; related forms like Brigindo appear in Gaul and I think the old identification of Caesar's Gaulish 'Minerva' with a Briganti-like goddess is sensible enough. She also seems to have various points of connection with Sulis-Minerva, in whom the fiery/watery associations coincide. (sul- meant 'sun' but the same word gives the Irish for 'eye'). So we can't say from the evidence positively that everyone worshipped her---but nor was her worship solely a northern Brigantian phenomenon, that is plain.

Think of it another way. St Mark was an important saint across Christendom---but he was ESPECIALLY important to the Venetians, because he was the patron saint of their city. Similarly, Briganti---and closely similar deities---seems to have been known in some widely-spaced areas in ancient Britain and Celtic Europe, but she was ESPECIALLY important to the Brigantes, which is why we have a lot of inscriptions from that area.

Arguments about whether goddess X-ona is really 'the same' as goddess Y-ina are a bit sterile, I fear. We haven't got an ancient Briton to ask, and different communities and social castes might have given different answers. Archaeology and so on can say, 'There are suggestive similarities between Sulis, Brigantia, and Irish Brigit which point to them being a shared type of deity' but beyond that we cannot go except via UPG.

[crowman]

Sorry didn't mean to put you on the spot, just the point I'm trying to make is that Bridget is associated with imbolc in ireland only not in Britain, so could briganti have been followed by some in northern britain and another local deity followed by others in a local festival recognising spring and/ or ewes milk? it just seems we consciously make a decision not to follow Gaelic or Celtic traditions yet readily accept Bridget? This is what I find confusing

[crowman]

I also agree with Nellie that it makes more sense for rigatona to return to the land, why briganti or Bridget?