Loyalty or fluff?

[myfyriwr]

As a Welsh lad, who loves this land, I have a desire to connect with the spirit and gods of this place.

Now, many years ago, as a young teenager, I took my first tentative steps into exploring 'paganism', in the fairly common fairly fluffy teenage 'wiccan' way. At that time, wishing to explore "Celtic" spirituality, I made many (most) of my prayers to the Morrigan.

Thing is, at the risk of sounding fluffy, I feel like I have actually formed some kind of connection / relationship with her after all these years (if 'her' is the right description ). The Morrigan is, as I understand it, an Irish Gaelic deity without a direct Brythonic 'equivalent'. I think I'd feel uncomfortable trying to use an 'equivalent' goddess at any rate.

I am most definitely Welsh, not Irish, but at the risk of sounding silly, I feel like 'dumping' my occasional worship of the Morrigan would be somewhat disloyal (not that she needs my worship I'm sure).

Of course, in my part of Wales I live closer to Ireland than to Cardiff...

I'm sure there's a question in there somewhere.

[redraven]

It is my experience that human boundaries (especially current national boundaries)don't really apply to other than human entities. There can be spirits / entities tied to specific locations but my own experiences suggest that those other than humans don't "play by the nationistic boundaries" we currently have in place at this moment in time. My own opinion is that if this relationship is active, I wouldn't myself, be too bothered if the current context isn't "in keeping" with traditional associations. We are all individual and our connections, IMO, tend to be individual as well. Do you consider this connection / relationship to be "at risk" because it appears to contradict "conventional" associations?

[myfyriwr]

I suppose what bothers me is possible cultural differences rather than nationality per se. If, as I hope, my own practice becomes more 'Brythonic' (in as far as I can work out what that means exactly), will it affect the relationship?

What I mean is, would interacting with a Gaelic divinity in a Brythonic fashion be akin to phoning a friend in Canada and calling them American? (i.e. annoying).

Not that my past interactions have been reconstructionist in approach (to be honest, they haven't been 'drawing circles' 'Wiccan' type rituals either - more meditation and a habit of chatting to Crows.)

Obviously, I need to do a lot more research about how Brythonic peoples interacted with their god(esse)s as well 

[dreamguardian]

The Romans seemed to have assimilated their gods and spirituality very well here so enjoy your exploration and research

[Lee]

I guess you have a few options;

1; drop any praxis involving Morrighan - the loyalty thing is really only something for you to answer to
2; carry on and come to terms with any internal conflicts
3; start looking for the 'name' she went by over here. What is it the Morrighan represents? in terms of roles and god forms we connect to, what is it you are connecting to you currently call Morrighan? look for the Brythonic equivalent.

There is some useful stuff on the Brython website: www.dunbrython.org/the-gods.html which might lead you in the right direction

In many ways your own theological view of what the gods 'are' will help on this. To me Rhiannon/Rigantona is the landscape itself and the personification of it, have a think about what Morrighan is to you and if you can tease out from that a means of using a more local name for the same forces in your own part of Wales.

anyway, hope that helps... keep posting if you have any more thoughts

Lee

[potia]

From what you write above your main interactions with the Morrigan are chatting to crows and meditation. Personally I wouldn't see any problems with continuing that practice. I talk to crows sometimes as messengers.

I also have a strong personal relationship with a being I call Cailleach who I perceive as the ancient one of the land in Scotland (I'm in Glasgow). Parts of Scotland would have been Brythonic but the name/title I know Her by isn't and I'm not sure if She was or not. It doesn't matter to me as that's what She responds to with me.

There's no reason I can see for you not to go with your heart and do what feels right to you in this instance.

[Chad]

Although there are certainly differences between Gaelic and Brythonic cultures, it may do well to remember the connections between Britain and Ireland during the Iron Age. At the least as far as trade is concerned. One would assume ideas were exchanged as well. You mentioned living in Western Wales? They certainly would have had contact with Ireland. As much as these days in the Reconstructionist community, it is the differences between Gaels, Britons, Celtiberians, and Gaulish, enough common ground was established for them all to be labeled Celtic.

Another thing, it isn't a big deal to not be a strict Reconstructionist. For example, I mainly am on the Brythonic side of things, but I also delve into the Gaulish side. Some may not like that, but sometimes, you just have to go with what you're feeling. So, if you honour the Morrigan, so be it. Although, if I may ask: Do you feel close to any Brythonic gods? Have you started to build a rapport with any of them?

[myfyriwr]

Thank you all for the input! Greatly appreciated.

Lee,

Lee said:

start looking for the 'name' she went by over here. What is it the Morrighan represents? in terms of roles and god forms we connect to, what is it you are connecting to you currently call Morrighan? look for the Brythonic equivalent.

I can't find any kind of equivalent which I'm happy with - There are any number of 'battle' deities, but none which feel quite right.

Lee said:

have a think about what Morrighan is to you and if you can tease out from that a means of using a more local name for the same forces in your own part of Wales.

This was really helpful. To me, she means a sort of portent of conflict, but also of the strength to overcome. I'm always more aware of her when things are tough for whatever reason, but she isn't a sort of harbinger of doom to me - more a giver of strength. As an example, I've been struggling with a few things just recently, and felt a bit overwhelmed the other night after a long shift. I had gone to see to the animals after finishing work, at dusk, and as I was walking through the field, I saw a crow's feather standing proud of the grass in my path - a small thing, but it reminded me that I had faced problems before and made it through. I guess this fits with her association with battle - I rarely need to go into battle in the traditional sense, but we all have 'battles' to fight. As for a name to call her, I don't know. Maybe Y Fran Ddu for want of anything else.

Potia,

potia said:

go with your heart and do what feels right to you in this instance.

Thank you for the advice - I think you're right. Ultimately, instinct is a fairly good guide, yes?

Chad,

Chad said:

Do you feel close to any Brythonic gods? Have you started to build a rapport with any of them?

I'm not sure - I'll be very honest and admit that I'm finding it a little difficult to know which figures to think of as deities, since the legends that I've read were all written post christianity. I live in Pwyll's backyard, and Rhiannon is a figure that I think of fairly often. I have also had a few dreams recently involving a figure who may or may not be associated with Cerridwen - I keep missing her name and forgetting when I wake up. Don't know if that's significant to me yet - She's turned up in dreams more than once, but of course it may just be a normal dream. I'll see what happens.

If anything, I feel most attached to particular places - wasn't there a belief in the spirit of a place - like a sort of very local god/ess? For example, there's a spring near to me which I've visited since childhood, and which has always made me feel reverent. I found out very recently that it's reputed to have healing powers, and is associated with St. Teilo - I'm thinking that a lot of places that were appropriated as being something to do with a saint have an older tradition associated with them that was hijacked by missionaries at a later date. I don't believe in the 'healing power' (well, not physical healing anyway), but the place certainly has significance to me.

The other spirits which I've increasingly begun to consciously revere are my ancestors. Not gods per se, but important to me.

[redraven]

I have only had interactions with Gods on three occaisons, my own work is very much based on spirits of place (genius loci) and the other than human communities with whom I have built a relationship with.

[Chad]

There are a good number of deities that do not currently have any stories associated with them. Cernunnos, Taranis, and Sucellos to name a few. Of course, all of the aforementioned being attested Brythonic gods. As far as who is a god, and who is not, I try to stay away from that one. In the sense that there are some storied characters some see as gods that I do not, in this instance, Pwyll and Cerridwen. However, it is not my place to tell you one way or another. Of course, there is much more to Brythonic Polytheist practise than deities. As has been mentioned, spirits of place. Also, since there is certainly an animistic element to ancient Celtic practises, it certainly is not easily forgotten. Deities may well come to you in time, Rigantona, of course, as you noted in Welsh, Rhiannon, would of course be prevalent to your area. I would venture to say that you are right in regards to streams and wells being, at the least co opted by saints, and most likely do have an earlier story. What that story might be, who knows? As far as deities, that will come in time. I sincerely wish you the best of luck. You may find them, they may find you.

[lorna]

I personally wouldn't see nationality as being a boundary. The reason I connect with Brythonic gods is that they seem to have been the ones most open to connection on the land where I live. I live in Lancashire, and have had experiences with deities known to have been worshipped in that area; Belisama (goddess of the river Ribble); Maponus (there's an altar to him in Ribchester); Brigantia (although no known inscriptions to her this side of the Pennines she is the goddess of the North of England); Nodens (a stauette was found to him on Cockersand Moss). Yet my deepest relationship is with Gwyn ap Nudd, who has no known association with the area.

Paradoxically for a pagan I'm also strongly aware of the presence of Yahweh, Jesus and Mary (Mary is the patron saint of my local sacred site) who I see as middle eastern. Admittedly, I can find no personal connection with them.

I'm happy to acknowledge the presence of the multiplicity of gods, spirits and ancestors; Brythonic, Gaelic, Roman, Christian, Saxon, Norse, Islamic, Hindu worshipped here, whilst specifically honouring the ones who communicate with me.

So I'd say, if you have a good relationship with Morrigan don't throw it away over issues of nationality. Maybe have a chat with her about your questions?

[Chad]

Personally, I don't see land spirits having a nationality. In the sense that I can relate to the spirits of place in a way that corresponds with my religious beliefs.

[cunedda]

I feel that the Teutonic Gods are in my blood, they seem to be within me and what I am, but when I am out on the land it is the ancient British Gods that overwhelmingly speak to me. I am English with distant Irish and Welsh connections, so is this 'double pull'unusual? Or spiritually speaking, am I a lost cause LOL.

Cunedda

[lorna]

I'm in a similar situation, Cunedda. My father's line, Smithers, are obviously Anglo-Saxon, and many of the other names within my family are English (my mother's maiden name was Collison, ?Scots Gaelic? but of course women's name get changed and bloodlines are harder to trace). I was so curious to work out whether my calling to the Brythonic gods was land-based or whether I had unknown Brythonic ancestry, I got my DNA tested and found out my father's line are definitely Anglo-Saxon and, surprisingly that my mother's line are 'Yenisei' - relating to the Yenisei Valley, this is the name for the genetic group of the Siberian Ket people! So no Brythonic connections at all. However, the database I got the results from said the Ket people were some of the first people after the Ice Age to repopulate Britain, way before the Celts. I'm not sure how accurate that is.

Discovering I'm English with a bit of Yenisei way, way back hasn't affected my relationship with the Brythonic gods in the slightest. Why should race affect our relationships with either people or gods? One thing I have noticed though, is that I found German much easier than Welsh. Whether that's because it's closer to English or because I was being taught it in a classroom setting rather than going round in circles with beginner's CDs I'm not sure. I also find Anglo-Saxon runes easy to read.

Strangely, the Anglo-Saxon gods have never really spoken to me, aside from a couple of scary dreams featuring Woden/Odin...

[Lee]

I think blood and landscape can and do influence, but neither are exclusive of the other.

Our blood is who we are, where we come from and carries with it our ancestors for 10's of 1000's of years. It is something people like us who are concerned with things such as the dead, the ancestor and people's relationship with the land. It would be surprising to me if someone like you Cunedda felt drawn to both, they are mutually exclusive of course.

That's easy for me to say of course - my Y chromosome shows up as R1B haplotype - so west Wales, possible E Ireland for a couple 1000 years. Exactly where my family have been living for the past 300 years we have records for, so likely 2000 years in the same area. One day I would like to get some mitochondrial DNA stuff done, for both my mother's and or my father's side of the family.

[cunedda]

That's interesting to hear lorna. I feel the Anglo-Saxon Gods very strongly, but as I said. when I'm on the land, it is not the Germanic Gods that seem to call to me, rather it's something much more ancient. I like to think it is the Gods of the Celtic peoples, and at other times I feel it is something much more ancient than even them.

Cunedda.

[Heron]

I've never felt that race had much to do with our relationships with the gods. The names by which we know them and the ways we relate to them are to some extent determined by culture and to some extent by landscape but not in my sense of the relationships we have with them by blood. If we go back far enough, say to the Bronze Age, most of the people of Europe were a homogenous mix of two racial groups: what we might think of as the 'original' occupiers of the land and the later Neolithic immigrants. Initially, genetic archaeology suggests they did not mix but eventually they did. There were long periods of stability where the gene pool of particular cultural groupings intensified, but others where people moved around. By the time of the Roman Empire most of Europe including Britain became a pretty cosmopolitan place. Genetic research suggests that the post-Roman invasions to Britain from Northern Europe didn't change the genetic mix much, though they may have had a cultural impact.

Were their gods different gods? Do gods invade with invaders or adapt from the landscape to meet their worshippers, revealing themselves and shaping their stories in new languages and contexts? In answer to the first question, It may be argued that they were not, essentially, different gods though they had different names and characters and so could meet themselves in their changed aspects. If so, the second question answers itself as far as post-Roman Britain was concerned, though what the answer(s) might be in the case of peoples and their gods coming from further away is another matter.

People have often said, as here, that Odinn/Woden resonates deeply with them, though they do not think of themselves otherwise as followers of the Germanic gods. Certainly there are compelling stories about him that to some extent explain this. It has ben suggested that the Gaulish god that the Romans called Mercury (though with different emphases from the Roman Mercury) may have been the same god that was worshipped by the Germanic people who overlapped culturally with the people of Gaul before the Romans occupied Gaul. That god was Woden. Was the god the Romans called Mercury in Gaul, previously known in Gaul as Lugus? What would it mean to say that they were the 'same god'? Certainly not that they were exactly equivalent. The gods are bigger than us. They might grow in a certain landscape, in a certain culture, and yet remain themselves, beyond both.

We live in a cosmopolitan world much as the inhabitants of the Roman Empire did. There may be gods among us who have not always been here. That is our reality.

[cunedda]

I'm not sure that the Gods (whatever name they choose to go by) really care a fig about the society we live in and how we view our own reality. As you said Heron "The gods are bigger than us". But it never fails to amaze me how Odin/Woden seems to have a profound effect on people who ordinarily would not associate themselves with the Germanic pantheon.

As for the 'Blood' argument, I'm not too sure one way or the other! I have read that First Nation Americans believe that their Gods will only answer to them alone because of the Blood/Ancestral line connection thing, and I seem to recall someone once telling me that Australian Aborigines more or less think the same way? Again, not too sure about that.

As for my own internal feelings of connection with what we recognise as the Germanic Gods and my external feelings of connection with what we recognise as Celtic or older Gods, I must confess I am still none the wiser.

For the time being, perhaps that will have to be my reality?

Cunedda