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Post by Chad on Jul 27, 2014 20:23:16 GMT -1
As it is well known, amongst our Gaelic friends, the Dagda is something of an ''All Father'', Eochaid Ollathair, I'm not well versed in Gaelic, so my apologies if that is incorrect. I think the translation of it is ''Great Father'' instead of ''All Father'', regardless, I have posed this question before in other areas, within which, Sucellos was the most common answer. I wondered if any of you would care to add an opinion and thought to the following, for which I have made the poll following. Please explain your opinion when you vote. If you feel it is someone I hadn't mentioned, let me know. Thank you, friends!
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Post by Chad on Jul 27, 2014 20:32:22 GMT -1
I believe it to be Taranis based upon, if nothing else, Sky/Thunder gods tend to hold a high position in Indo European traditions. This, and although there are marked difference between Gaelic and Brythonic religion, and since this question isn't quite at a consensus within the Gaulish community either, Gaelic would probably be the next closest group. An Dagda has sky/thunder attributes and is chief of the Tuatha de Dannan. The Romans, though not always the best source, more often equated him with Jupiter. I'm not saying any of this sets it in stone, however, this is how I reached my conclusion.
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Post by redraven on Jul 27, 2014 20:42:39 GMT -1
Being an animist, my experiences of the Gods are extremely limited (read three precisely). I have not experienced any sort of actual or theoretical hierarchies within those experiences. However, may I make a suggestion that there may be case for adding "Dis Pater" who it was written was important to the classical Druids.
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Post by Lee on Jul 27, 2014 20:50:40 GMT -1
I would go with Dis Pater too, or his equivalent in Britain. That said to my mind he was killed at the point of creation, if you mean all father like Odin etc then I would probably settle on Taranis too
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Post by Chad on Jul 27, 2014 22:15:44 GMT -1
The Celtic to Norse or Saxon comparisons are hard for me, because on one side, Lugus bears a closer resemblance to Woden, to me, due to his "skill in all crafts". Yet, I don't see him as a leader or a god of wisdom. Not that he isn't wise, I'm sure he is, and my experiences with him certainly lead me to believe he is no fool. Taranis seems to have that commanding, leadership, slow to anger mentality. Of course, once he is, watch out! Back on track and going off of things other than my UPG, which, in honesty, never really affected my conclusions involving my question. Taranis doesn't really have much in common with Thunor, except two things, he is a thunder god, and was probably a demon slaying god. It's hard for me not to go into UPG when making these comparisons, since much about Taranis' personality is relatively unknown, historically speaking, so I'll cut it short there. I thank you both for your thoughts.
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Post by potia on Jul 28, 2014 13:58:55 GMT -1
I think I'd have to go with Beli Mawr but I have not had any contact with a being relating to that name. The reason for this choice is that Don is often given as the mother of the Welsh gods and Beli Mawr is her consort. There's also a strong argument to my mind for Belenos even though he is linked more to Apollo than Jupiter. I've not voted though as I'm really not sure at all. My strongest relationship with male deities is with Maponos. I don't relate well to father figures in general For info see: www.maryjones.us/jce/don.html www.maryjones.us/jce/belimawr.htmlwww.maryjones.us/jce/belenos.html
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Post by Chad on Aug 12, 2014 5:06:06 GMT -1
I've equated Beli Mawr with Bolgios, I mean, there really isn't anything on Beli Mawr, so I don't really think there's a ''right'' or ''wrong'' between which of the two, I've heard a lot of both. Somehow I missed your comment, I apologise for that. I do not really know what to think of the Welsh deities in Y Mabinogi. I can see Llew is Lugus, Rhiannon being based off of Rigantona, or Epona, depending on one's flavouring of terms. Mabon is based off of Maponos, Modron off of Matrona. Yet, I've heard that Gwydion may be based off of Woden? Nudd from Nodens. No Brigantia, no Taranis (and if you know me... haha), but, back to point, no Sucellus, or Cernunnos either, and either Belenos or Bolgios were not included, whichever one Beli Mawr was not, if he were either. I wonder if they were just forgotten legends, or if these deities were just not prominent in what is now Wales. For me, Y Mabinogi raises more questions than answers. However, it is that search for answers that keeps me researching, and asking questions. Life would be boring if all of the answers were so clearly and easily laid out.
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Post by gruffudd on Aug 27, 2017 21:25:41 GMT -1
I'm basing my vote mostly on Lucans poem with Taranis, Toutatis and Esus as a triune god. Leading from this the role of Toutatis as a tribal protector god. So if these three are a holy trinity then one is the other, therefore in my logic Toutatis the tribal protector is also Taranis... Sky father. That's my thought process.
But then again I'm really not 100% on this.
A wild stab in the dark would be to point at the christian god and ask why this sky father suddenly became a holy trinity once Europeanised when the Jewish god was never triune.
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Post by lorna on Sept 6, 2017 17:17:02 GMT -1
I haven't answered this thread yet. I'd go with whoever our Gallo-Brythonic 'Dis' is due to the following from Caesar's Gallic Wars (58-49BC) - ‘All the Gauls assert that they are descended from the god Dis, and say that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids. For that reason they compute the divisions of every season, not by the number of days, but of nights; they keep birthdays and the beginnings of months and years in such an order that the day follows the night.’
My guess is that our Gallo-Brythonic Dis Pater 'Father of Riches' is Pen Annwfn, 'Head of the underworld' and guardian of its riches. In Prieddu Annwfn it's hinted at that he's bound up with the measurement of time in the riddles about the day and hour of the Head's(Pen)/God's (Dwy) birth which would certainly fit with birthdays. The Brythonic gods Gwyn ap Nudd and Arawn, who are both seasonal gods, would both fit this role and may be 'the same' deity under different titles. Another possibility for that title is Nodens/Nudd/Lludd who is older than Gwyn and thus may be seen as an older father god?
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Post by Heron on Sept 10, 2017 12:40:25 GMT -1
I wouldn't want to vote on such a thing, and am anyway not sure what sense of 'father' it would be possible to identify among Brythonic gods. Nor am I sure if the idea of a pantheon can be applied to them and so whether a father figure is necessary
But as the original post mentioned the analogy with the Irish Dagda, rather than a sky god like Taranis, I wonder if Math mab Mathonwy from the Fourth mabinogi might be worth considering? John Carey has characterised that story as a 'Brythonic myth of origins'. Math is King of Gwynedd and is uncle to Gwydion, Aranrhod, Amaethon and Gofannon who are the children of Dôn. Dôn is usually taken to be their mother and so would be Math's sister. If she is the mother of the gods, then Math is the 'father', though not apparently in the usual way. Taking succession to be matrilineal in this way would in any case change the focus from father to mother. Math's parent 'Mathonwy' is not identified as male or female and may be a simple doublet for his first name. He is in fact unmarried at the beginning of the tale and can only live if he keeps his feet in the lap of a virgin, though after the woman who fulfils this role is raped by his nephew Gilfaethwy (who may be a made-up character created for the purposes of this tale) she then becomes his wife and the condition no longer seems to apply. Could this signify a change in succession arrangements?
After Math Lleu (Lugus?) becomes King of Gwynedd. The circumstances of his birth and upbringing are also not conventional and by then the wife that was created for him has been turned into an owl and it seems he can have no other wife.
In Irish stories the Dagda is linked to Danu and some have thought that we should think of Dôn in the same way and so regard the family represented here as a Brythonic version of the Tuatha dé Danaan. There are reservations about how far back in Irish mythology that term can be applied (Megli ...?) but if we are looking for a story enacting the relationships between a 'family' of gods rather than relying simply on historical references to names and Roman 'equivalents', then this might be it.
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Post by lorna on Sept 11, 2017 16:18:04 GMT -1
@ Heron - Yes, if we're thinking in terms of 'family trees' Math or, better, Mathonwy might be a good candidate. I'm sure I read somewhere that Mathonwy had a consort called Manogan and that meant 'binding song'. Don and Beli Mawr, I seem to recall, are also candidates for 'mother and father' of the gods. A web search on Manogan brings up Manogan as father of Beli Mawr en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beli_Mawr so perhaps Manogan and Mathonwy preceded Beli Mawr and Don. But maybe, as you suggest, we are humanising too much...
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Post by Heron on Sept 12, 2017 10:41:46 GMT -1
@ Heron - Yes, if we're thinking in terms of 'family trees' Math or, better, Mathonwy might be a good candidate. I'm sure I read somewhere that Mathonwy had a consort called Manogan and that meant 'binding song'. Don and Beli Mawr, I seem to recall, are also candidates for 'mother and father' of the gods. A web search on Manogan brings up Manogan as father of Beli Mawr en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beli_Mawr so perhaps Manogan and Mathonwy preceded Beli Mawr and Don. But maybe, as you suggest, we are humanising too much... I'd be interested to know the source of the reference to Manogan as the consort of Mathonwy. Rachel B cites a possible meaning of the name as 'Mynawg' ('noble, courteous'). I've always considered Beli Mawr to be a legendary Brythonic ancestor rather than a god, though of course ancestors do become divine! : "And the emperor (Maxen) conquered the island (of Britain) from Beli son of Manogan and his sons" ( Dream of Maxen Wledig). The bit in Lludd and Lleuelis that says Lludd was one of Beli's sons was inserted from the Brut (the Welsh-language adaptation of Geoffrey of Monmouth's History .... This suggests that the compilers were inserting legendary history in the Welsh version to supplement Geoffrey's Latin text. Clearly gods do get inserted into legendary history but if Beli did originate, as some suggest, in the Gaulish god Belenus we still have to ask if Beli was a later Brythonic name of this god, or if he was named after the god.
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