|
|
Post by mabinogishan on Jan 21, 2016 6:18:26 GMT -1
I am right now about to write an article for Trilithon about bridging the personal creative vision, and academic research.
I do not myself find this a problem but many do.
Academics can be narrow and snobbish, but their skills of being careful, putting together a mosaic of knowledge, are fascinating. It's slow work but so exciting when bits suddenly fit together.
Some Pagan writers are reluctant to make it clear they are writing a personal view. They state something as if it is universally true when it is really a personal truth. Personal vision can be wildly inaccurate in academic terms, but awen truth is ultimately the most valuable of all.
I hope that makes it clear I respect both academic work and personal vision, while finding annoyances in both! I would love to hear your thoughts as I put together my article; if I quote you I will of course credit you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Jan 21, 2016 14:04:46 GMT -1
[.....] Personal vision can be wildly inaccurate in academic terms, but awen truth is ultimately the most valuable of all. Yes  |
|
|
|
Post by lorna on Jan 22, 2016 10:12:09 GMT -1
@ Shan, your combination of creative vision and academic work for Rhiannon sounds a lot like some of the work I'm doing for Gwyn ap Nudd - deconstructing the Arthurian and Christian framework of his stories, particularly in 'Culhwch and Olwen' and re-framing and re-imagining his repressed mythos. As an eg. this is the work I've done on recovering memories of Gwyn's hunt from Culhwch- lornasmithers.wordpress.com/2015/12/30/memories-of-gwyns-hunt-in-culhwch-and-olwen/And a re-imagining of 'The Crossing of Gwyddno Garanhir' based on 'The Conversation of Gwyn ap Nudd and Gwyddno Garanhir' awenydd.cymru/2015/11/08/the-crossing-of-gwyddno-garanhir/I'd be interested to read your work in progress on Rhiannon. Perhaps you have some pieces worth sharing on the Brython site or blog? |
|
|
|
Post by mabinogishan on Jan 22, 2016 21:11:27 GMT -1
Lorna I have already much enjoyed your Gwyn ap Nudd writing. In fact your blog is how I discovered this board.
> I'd be interested to read your work in progress on Rhiannon. Perhaps you have some pieces worth sharing on the Brython site or blog?
That's a very kind invitation. Quite a lot of what I've been doing so far is a bit dull for a general readership as it's been nuts n bolts foundation stuff so I can build up. For example I just excerpted out every single time Rhiannon speaks so I can see/ hear her 'in her own voice.'That whole piece would be a bit plodding to read - I literally count how many times certain things come up. But some bits are fun.
For example Rhiannon's voice is never submissive, not once. It shows she is even more dominant and formidable than at first appears! I analyse her anyway as first and foremost a strategist, but this kind of detailed work very much supports it. Very necessary as there's a lot of boring sexism that gets in the way of looking at Mabinogi women.
One item is especially interesting which supports a theory I have about her magic. Her 'bag speech' when she instructs Pwyll on how to strategise the second wedding and salvage their plan to marry, as a speech, is the longest speech in the whole Mabinogi!!! Also the word 'bag' appears in the First branch as often as her own name, and is in the top five words over all.
This kind of almost ridiculous arithmetic shows how very important the bag is to the plot, and to the whole Mabinogi, not just the First Branch. That is, if we take the Mabinogi as skilled literature, which I do (following John Bollard). The approach which insists on the tales as a broken, damaged mythology obscured the Mabinogi for a long time. The vision of a lost golden age actually subtly downgrades the work itself. But there are so many connections in it that show a very clever mind at work, which justify 'taking it seriously' as a deliberately sophisticated piece of writing. From that, the frequency of using certain concept words, and length of an outstanding speech, signals the author sees something as extremely important. This then helps me argue for Rhiannon's magic as pivotal. (More on this later! you'll love this theory but I'm not giving it oput yet.)
Clue. The speech has a character that strongly suggests a tranceworking, using suggestion on Pwyll, to program him as her agent. Arawn also does the same earlier on Pwyll, and storytelling has a key role in other places, together with its etymology being suggestive.
I will have a think about a piece for you. I'm a bit confused about references to a Brython site - I haven't been able to find it and never heard of it in almost 20 years online with strong interests in Celtic esp. Welsh Celtic stuff. It doesn't come up on google. The only blog I know is yours.
|
|
|
|
Post by mabinogishan on Jan 22, 2016 21:31:31 GMT -1
[.....] Personal vision can be wildly inaccurate in academic terms, but awen truth is ultimately the most valuable of all. Yes I think I should make clear that while I deeply respect awen, personal vision, I also strongly object to authors who foist it on others with unjustified authority. To explain - if anyone on a forum like this, or a personal blog, comments 'This goddess is the same as this one' or 'XYZ is a sovereignty goddess' then that's their vision. Where I disagree my vision is just different. But if the author of a book, or an article, or a blog/ webpage as part of an aim to teach, or give a public statement, says something similar, I expect to see either evidence, or a comment making it clear this is a personal view. That is, it needs to say 'My view is ...' not 'It is ...' It's about truth, and integrity. Giving a statement authority, as if it comes from traditional statements, or has been widely agreed by scholars working out the jigsaw, needs caution and responsibility. I think there are three causes when someone over reaches, and claims an authority they do not have. 1) Guruitis, the demands of the market to sell books, snob, competition for elite status. 2) The particularly fluid nature of much of Celtic material which reflects strong values in Celtic society against centralism, monotheism, unified hierarchy. This makes it rather too easy to throw things together in a merry way. 3) Modern education and social values which both promote bullying and painful inequality. People are left with little self respect, and find it extremely difficult to feel that 'my vision' is valuable in its own right. So they puff it up with universal statements. It takes a strong heart to say simply 'This is my vision.' (Something I see as basic to initiation.) |
|
|
|
Post by potia on Jan 24, 2016 15:37:22 GMT -1
|
|
|
|
Post by mabinogishan on Jan 27, 2016 5:13:37 GMT -1
Diolch yn fawr. I am happily enjoying it and feel much at home. May I please offer a correction in the patch I know about. The Library page gives this: The Mabinogion - variously translated : Sioned Davies' is the most recent; Patrick Ford's has an interesting introduction. Ford's translation is NOT the Mabinogion. He very definitely chose to publsih only the Mabinogi, Llud and Lleuelys; Culhwch ac Olwen; Gwion Bach; Taliesin. He excludes the Three Romances, and the two Dream tales because he is championing the 'native tradition' that s, Brythonic not Anglo-Norman. How about using Ford's excellent title, and write it from the Brythonic point of view, prioritising the native tales (the Mabinogi) as Ford does? The Mabinogi and other Native Tales - Patrick Ford gives the native Brythonic tales (1977, 2008 and online). The Four Branches of the Mabinogi are also easily available via Will Parker (2002 online). John Bollard does beautiful book versions, with photography of relevant Welsh sites (2006 etc) but not quite so cheaply. Sioned Davies' book The Mabinogion is the most recent publication, which adds the later Anglo-Norman romance tales. All authors provide introductory information. |
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Jan 27, 2016 17:08:38 GMT -1
... May I please offer a correction in the patch I know about. The Library page gives this: The Mabinogion - variously translated : Sioned Davies' is the most recent; Patrick Ford's has an interesting introduction. Ford's translation is NOT the Mabinogion. He very definitely chose to publsih only the Mabinogi, Llud and Lleuelys; Culhwch ac Olwen; Gwion Bach; Taliesin. He excludes the Three Romances, and the two Dream tales because he is championing the 'native tradition' that s, Brythonic not Anglo-Norman. How about using Ford's excellent title, and write it from the Brythonic point of view, prioritising the native tales (the Mabinogi) as Ford does? The Mabinogi and other Native Tales - Patrick Ford gives the native Brythonic tales (1977, 2008 and online). The Four Branches of the Mabinogi are also easily available via Will Parker (2002 online). John Bollard does beautiful book versions, with photography of relevant Welsh sites (2006 etc) but not quite so cheaply. Sioned Davies' book The Mabinogion is the most recent publication, which adds the later Anglo-Norman romance tales. All authors provide introductory information. I take you point here and have often preferred to focus on the Mabinogi and Culhwch in discussions but others have found this off-putting in the same way way you say our use of 'religion' could be off-putting. 'Mabinogion' is an understood term which people feel is easier to relate to. However I would support your suggestion here except that I would want to qualify the final comment about all authors supplying introductory information as I feel we might want to have a view on the relative usefulness of each one. My view is that we should be uncompromising in all things.  |
|
|
|
Post by mabinogishan on Jan 27, 2016 21:04:25 GMT -1
Thanks Heron.
Yes it is most unfortunate that the title The Mabinogion is what has again become familiar to people. This is really a nonsense title which has been repeatedly used by some writers going back to a (probably dozy) scribe's error on one occasion in the Middle Ages.
Ford struck a very sensible position against this in 1977, and Will Parker 2003, then John Bollard 2006 etc. followed. Unfortunately Sioned Davies 2007/ 2008 bowed to commercial considerations and her well known name has now recycled the problem.
I think it is important if the information given here is Brythonic/ Brittonic, to be true to Brythonic/ Brittonic material, which means Ford's contents list. The additional tales in The Mabinogion are not Brythonic tales. They're Anglo-French or Norman troudabour tales, part of the Arthurian craze in the mediaeval period which is a chivalry fantasy of that time.
At some point it needs to be stated that The Mabinogion is a ridiculous mistake which titles a fairly random collection of tales which otherwise have nothing in common. But on the Library page the entries are short so I composed one that would not be too badly out of alignment. (Possibly a footnote or on a linked page with more detail.)
On the introductions and the differences between all the translations it's no problem for me to draft brief notes on each, maybe one sentence or so each. But I think this goes beyond the scope of a page which clearly aims for an overview of quite a few titles. There are about eight translations and they are all valuable n their own way (also a small choice of Welsh versions). Your own view of Ford and Bollard as the key ones to recommend on Brythonic ground is absolutely correct.
I do think it would be good to give links to the freely available online versions - many of these are not well known, including other items listed on the Library page.
(The Library list really ought to be separated into Brythonic and Goidelic though as people do get the two confused. Brythonic (Wales, Cornwall, Brittany) has major differences to Goidelic (Irish, Scots) in part because Brythonic zones were integrated with Roman and Greek cultures via the empire. The concept of Britain (Ynys Prydain) never did include Ireland.)
|
|
