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Post by bobmullo on Oct 16, 2017 18:22:57 GMT -1
Are there Latin influences in modern Brythonic reconstruction due to the Roman policy of syncretism? I'm just asking about the way people here view the relationship between Roman and British gods. I don't really have any interest in any other type of reconstructed practice besides Celtic but I'm new to all of this and I don't really know how others approach syncretism. Also, I am curious to learn if others have broken away from monotheism and what that was like for others here.
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Post by Heron on Oct 19, 2017 12:24:33 GMT -1
Are there Latin influences in modern Brythonic reconstruction due to the Roman policy of syncretism? I'm just asking about the way people here view the relationship between Roman and British gods. I don't really have any interest in any other type of reconstructed practice besides Celtic but I'm new to all of this and I don't really know how others approach syncretism. It's inevitable that the Romans effected what we know of ancient Brythonic religion because Gaul and, later, Britain were as you have indicated part of the Roman Empire and also because the written records and descriptions of ancient Brythonic practice before Roman occupation come largely from Roman writers of the period. Whether that is an influence on modern reconstruction I suppose depends on the sources being used. It might be argued that material preserved in folklore and then included in early Welsh tales constructed from oral tales and shaped into literary works might preserve a 'purer' source. But we cannot really know and must be guided by what we can gather and what moves us in what we can gather and what we can validate from our own experience today. We have all broken away from monotheism in the sense that it has been the dominant religion for many centuries. But if you mean broken away from a family tradition of observing monotheistic religion, this was largely nominal in my case so I didn't need to break away from something imposed on me as a child and could follow my own inclinations and discoveries as I grew up.
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Post by potia on Oct 19, 2017 20:17:59 GMT -1
I'm my younger years I was quite the fervent Christian so yes, I've broken away from monotheism. I had a period of neutral opinion about religion for a while with a bit of resentment too. I gradually moved onto Paganism and for a while was a bit generic Pagan before becoming polythesist so it's taken time for me to grow to the position I'm now in.
Latin influences will vary I think. For example one of the deities I make devotions to is Maponos and my understanding of what he is has been coloured by the knowledge that the Romans linked him to Apollo. This affects the things I approach him about more than the methods I use.
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Post by bobmullo on Oct 20, 2017 13:33:39 GMT -1
Thank you both for your helpful perspectives!
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Post by lorna on Oct 21, 2017 9:45:11 GMT -1
'Are there Latin influences in modern Brythonic reconstruction due to the Roman policy of syncretism? I'm just asking about the way people here view the relationship between Roman and British gods. I don't really have any interest in any other type of reconstructed practice besides Celtic but I'm new to all of this and I don't really know how others approach syncretism.'
I do wonder whether having altars to the gods and statues of the gods in anthropomorphic or zoomorphic forms is based on Roman syncretism as there is little evidence for those in pre-Roman Britain. From what we know of the gods through the Bardic tradition I get the impression that the Britons would have lived the myths of their gods as passed down by the bards and druids orally as an essential part of their lives within their landscapes and perhaps the land itself served as a place of worship. And of course the gods of other cultures have always been with us becoming part of the landscape too although they have never felt quite as rooted to me.
'Also, I am curious to learn if others have broken away from monotheism and what that was like for others here.'
My parents were once nominally Christian but my dad's now agnostic and my mum's more of a nature based spirituality. I had to go to church with Brownies and felt a really bad knee-jerk reaction at the patriarchal presence of the Christian God and used to kick and scream and refuse to go. I knew there the divine was out there and that He didn't encompass all of it. Through a combination of my own experiences, Romantic poetry, and Greek and Roman myths I began to experience the presence of spirits within the landscape and also had encounters with the otherworld and its spirits but the Classical myths didn't seem to provide the right framework for what I was experiencing. It was only when I came to Brythonic polytheism and learnt we have native gods and spirits and an otherworld known as Annwn then later Faery that things began to make sense.
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Post by bobmullo on Oct 22, 2017 4:15:35 GMT -1
This forum had been very helpful to me as have these answers to my question. I'm still trying to grasp the concept of polytheism. I have recently been studying the four branches of Mabinogi. As I have mentioned before, this is all new to me. Though I am at least familiar with archaeology and Iron Age Briton, I have never studied the Welsh literature in depth. I have found that Brythonic deities are hard to pin down and sort out from the literature. Do you think that ancient Britons were open to syncretism? How do you all feel about drawing parallels between the Brythonic gods who are reflected in the Mabinogion and the Tuath Dé in Ireland? How relevant are the Gaelic sources?
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Post by Heron on Oct 22, 2017 14:32:30 GMT -1
(....) Do you think that ancient Britons were open to syncretism? How do you all feel about drawing parallels between the Brythonic gods who are reflected in the Mabinogion and the Tuath Dé in Ireland? How relevant are the Gaelic sources? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'Syncretism', but presumably the 'Interpretatio Romana' by which the Romans sought to identify the gods of other peoples with their own (rather than the syncretic fusing of different beliefs). As far as we can know it seems that the Brythonic gods of the peoples living in Britain in the Iron Age would have been acknowledged at a tribal level, but seem to be common among the different tribes. How these relate to earlier gods is difficult to pin down and how they relate to the gods the Romans identified and linked to their own pantheon is mostly known from the writings of Romans at the time and from statues and inscriptions, the making of which is a practice that the Romans introduced. It does seem to have been the case that the Romans were prepared to acknowledge a range of gods as well as those which they linked to their own main pantheon, after all they had a host of other gods as well and the nature of polytheism is that any god who is apparent can be worshipped. What the Romans brought was a cosmopolitan approach, seeing gods from anywhere and everywhere as potentially manifest. The important thing to note here is that there was not a single state of religion and then a different state of religion, but a continuous process of change where the nature of worship changed as did other cultural factors from the Bronze through to the Iron Age into Roman Britain. In so far as the gods live in Time they change through time as does everything else. This is particularly a factor with the Tuatha Dé in Ireland where there was a continuous literary tradition in which they featured over a thousand years or so (if Megli is around he can elaborate on this). During this time they are represented in different periods as remnant gods, ancestors, aboriginal peoples, dwellers in a parallel otherworld and heroic figures. Cross references from medieval sources in Welsh are useful if we know we are comparing contemporary sources, and such cross referring often takes place, but such was the nature of change in the characteristics of the gods as they continued to be represented in Irish literature that we need to ask 'when?' as well as what we are comparing.
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Post by bobmullo on Oct 23, 2017 17:36:39 GMT -1
Thanks for the answers. I am still trying to determine when it is appropriate to acknowledge certain deities as separate and distinct from others. For example, Gwyn and Cernunnos seem pretty similar but is it safe to suggest that they are the same? That's what I mean by syncretism I suppose.
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Post by Lee on Oct 25, 2017 14:04:17 GMT -1
there are some cases where gods and goddesses could be considered "the same"; Lugh, Lugos, Lleu. Gofannon, Goibniu etc. Then there are the temporal variations; Nodens, Nudd, Lludd; where the language of the people has evolved and the names with it.
Parallels like Gwyn and Cernunnos; really unlikely.
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Post by lorna on Oct 28, 2017 9:03:47 GMT -1
bobmullo'Do you think that ancient Britons were open to syncretism?' I took a look at the definition of 'syncretism' in the OED - 'The amalgamation or attempted amalgamation of different religions, cultures, or schools of thought.' We know that the Romans definitely practiced syncretism, amalgamating the Roman and British gods from inscriptions to Apollo-Maponus, Belisama-Minerva, Mars-Nodens, and from statues where our gods are shown with attributes of Roman gods. One assumes that both Romans and Britons, possibly mainly the elites worshiped in these temples. I do wonder whether some Britons who resented Roman rule kept up their own practice of venerating the British gods without amalgamating them with the Roman gods. Personally I see no need to amalgamate, say Nodens with Mars, because he is an individual deity in his own right. I don't really understand why the Romans had to syncretise our gods with theirs rather than worshiping them in their own right which they might have done if their only aim was to honour the gods of Britain and win their favour. I think sycretism may have been bound up with control so do feel a bit edgy about it. 'How do you all feel about drawing parallels between the Brythonic gods who are reflected in the Mabinogion and the Tuath Dé in Ireland? How relevant are the Gaelic sources?' I think drawing parallels is fine. I find the parallels between, say Fionn and Gwyn are illuminating and intriguing, yet there are notable differences too. I wonder whether 'the same' deities develop into 'different' people in different times and places... Like Brigantia, Bride, and Brigid, seem in some ways to be the same but notably different too. 'I am still trying to determine when it is appropriate to acknowledge certain deities as separate and distinct from others. For example, Gwyn and Cernunnos seem pretty similar but is it safe to suggest that they are the same? That's what I mean by syncretism I suppose.' I've felt similarities between Gwyn and Cernunnos too and have pondered whether they are 'the same' deity under Gaulish and British names, due to the horns/antlers and serpent and their associations with cauldrons, shapeshifting, and transformation. I haven't received a direct answer about this so am leaving the question open until I do.
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Post by bobmullo on Oct 31, 2017 2:10:14 GMT -1
Again, thank you all for patiently answering my questions. lorna it makes sense that the syncretism practiced by the Romans was largely for political influence over the population but there seem to be some parallels within Brythonic polytheism with other Celtic deities and that is a different type of syncretism, I think.. I still have a lot of reading to do but I wanted to see what others think about this sort of thing and learn more before I give any offerings or perform rituals. It's almost Halloween/Spirit Night here in America and the trees always have amazing colors here in the mountains this time of year. It's also been cold and windy which is a blessing because I think the climate is definitely much warmer in the colder months these days.
Should I make new posts when I have questions?
Many thanks.
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Post by Heron on Oct 31, 2017 15:03:09 GMT -1
..... Should I make new posts when I have questions? Many thanks. Yes by all means
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