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Post by nantonos on Mar 14, 2005 13:25:49 GMT -1
Which translations and which commentaries of the Mabinogi do people recommend? I have the Lady Charlotte Guest one, which is romanticised and edited for remotely sexual content; and the Patrick K Ford one which has a good insightful introduction and seems to be a good translation. There is also the Will Parker translation, which is online and seems to be better than Ford. www.mabinogi.net/translations.htmFor commentaries, I have Gruffydd, W.J. (1953) Rhiannon, an enquiry into the origins of the first and third branches of the Mabonogi. Cardiff, University of Wales Press. which most later commentors seem keen to distance themselves from on the grounds that he extrapolates wildly beyond the evidence. What do others recommend?
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Post by siaron on Mar 14, 2005 13:36:15 GMT -1
I have four different translations, and the ones I like are Ford and Jones and Jones.
Guest's translation is will always be considered suspect because of the 'censorship' and the fact that she was not a native speaker.
I have a translation by Ganz that is not considered to be good at all (I hang out with a group of Celtic scholars and this is coming from them. They recommend Ford.)
I hadn't heard about the Gruffydd book, it sounds interesting (I don't mind a bit of extrapolating!)
Pob Bendith,
Siaron
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 14, 2005 16:26:53 GMT -1
I favour Jones and Jones, for the very dubious reason that it's the first one I ever owned However, it does seem to be one of the best available, imho. I'm planning to obtain a copy of the Ford soon, and am looking forward to comparing the two. I have a beautiful copy of the Charlotte Guest, which I bought for the illustrations. While I would never recommend using Guest as a sole source, it's still interesting to read. After all, 'scholarship' was not the issue when she wrote her version, and though her words do not stand up to modern scrutiny, I think that what her text tells us about the age in which she was writing is valuable in itself. I do like the Will Parker translation! Found that online a while back and instantly printed his whole site out, just in case such a great resource were to disappear from the net. I find his notes very illuminating, though I don't agree with everything he says I am looking forward to the publication of his book - does anyone know when it will be out? The other copy I have is in modern Welsh by Dafydd and Rhiannon Ifans. Unfortunately, my Welsh is not good enough for me to offer a critical view of that - at the moment, I just sit down with it of an evening, with my Geiriadur Mawr close to hand At some point, I would like to have an in depth discussion on each of the Mabinogion tales, it will be interesting to share ideas and explore the differences between the various translations.
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 14, 2005 16:31:49 GMT -1
By the way - I'd not heard of the Rhiannon commentary, but would be very interested to find a copy of that - given our shared interest in Epona... I do have a copy of The Horse in Celtic Culture, Medieval Welsh Perspectives (Davies and Jones) which has some interesting things to say on the subject.
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Post by Brochfael on Mar 24, 2005 16:14:10 GMT -1
I've got the Jones and Jones version. Somehow it feels better having been translated by Welshmen.
Lady Guest persuaded a local scholar to teach her Welsh and then set about translating the manuscripts and couldn't make head nor tail of them as they were in Mediaeval Welsh. So she got her scholar to translate them into modern Welsh so she could translate them into English. Of course she did so with a victorian mindset that would not permit anything even slightly naughty.
I must have a read of her version one day but the most commonly cited mistake of hers is the rendition of Lleu Llaw Gyffes (fair or bright one of the steady hand) as Llew llaw Gyffes (Lion of the steady hand)!
The only commentry on the Mabinogi that I posess is J+C Matthews "Mabon and the Mysteries of Britain". This book can be a little "off with the fairies" at times but has a lot of good stuff in it too.
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Post by nantonos on Jun 12, 2005 12:50:59 GMT -1
I should have drawn attention to the annotated bibliography on Will Parkers site as well, in case anyone missed it. www.mabinogi.net/Bibliography.htmalthough I recommend reading his review of scholarship on the topic first www.mabinogi.net/bibliog_essay.htmIt explains in more detail what I referred to as the 'wild extrapolation' of W. G. Gruffydd. Who is still worth reading, but with caution.
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 13, 2005 6:35:31 GMT -1
I'd missed those completely, thanks for pointing them out. I've been finding the footnotes to his translations quite illuminating too, even though I don't always agree with him
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Post by gwyfyn on Jan 14, 2007 7:57:16 GMT -1
I have the Ford, Gantz, and Jones & Jones translations (I was going to buy the Guest w/ the illustrations by Alan Lee--for the artwork, mostly--but it was unfortunately sold out). I find that each translations has its own merits. The Guest was what brought the Mabinogi to the public, more or less, and so therefore should be appreciated, though I am ruffled by her censorship. The J&J is quite accurate but slightly archaic, whereas the Gantz is quite easy to read--and my first copy, so it has a special place in my heart and bedside! The Ford translation is, I do find, most likely the best yet published. It is both quite accurate with wonderful introductions and very readable. However, I do also greatly enjoy Will Parker's translation. His copious notes have made for many a well-spent evening!
I've not yet had a chance to get my hands on a copy of Gruffydd's work, nor MacCana's, which is a pity, because I'd certainly like to see exactly what they say. I've read quotations and paraphrases of them, but it's not quite the same. Of course, I would take what Gruffydd says especially with a grain of salt, as I too have heard he takes his conclusions a tad far.
Overall, I think one should try to get as many translations of the Mabinogi as possible, if only to review and compare each in turn. It certainly can't hurt, and may certainly even be more than a little rewarding!
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Post by Heron on Jan 14, 2007 22:05:52 GMT -1
Perhaps I can recommend a new translation. Here's a brief review: The Mabinogi trans John K Bollard, Photographs by Anthony Griffiths (Gomer 2006) £19.99 This very attractive new edition of the Four Branches of Y Mabinogi could be passed over as an expensive 'coffee table book', but that would be a mistake. For a start it provides a new rendition aiming at an accurate translation which follows the style of the original. True is doesn't have the poetic quality of Jones & Jones but it is a clear and accessible text which anyone wanting a good idea of what the tales contain can rely upon. It has an informative introduction and afterword discussing the tales and their context. It also supplies useful notes in a way that does not encumber the text and appear as part of a well-designed page. The photographs are not simply there to prettiify the text. In these tales the specific places are a feature of the narrative and so the idea of photographing the places mentioned was well conceived as well as being well executed. So we see the stone with a hole in it in Dyffryn Nantlle identified as the stone through which Lleu threw his spear at Gronw Pebyr. There are photographs of alternative locations for Gorsedd Arberth from where Pwyll first saw Rhiannon riding on a white horse and eluding all who tried to catch up with her. Most suggestive of all is the picture of the falls of the River Dulas into Glyn Cuch where the entrance to Annwn is located. ::::: For a summary of some of Gruffydd's conclusions about Rhiannon and Manawydan you might like to try: www.rhiannon-and-manawydan.net
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Post by Blackbird on Jan 18, 2007 22:15:08 GMT -1
Oooh, that sounds very very interesting indeed! And I hear on the grapevine that there is yet another just being published: Jan 1 2007 Sally Williams, Western Mail A WELSH academic has just completed the first new English translation of The Mabinogion for 30 years. Sioned Davies, chair of Welsh at Cardiff University, has recreated the medieval stories of Wales. And Welsh academics believe the work could attract the attention of movie makers looking to make a Lord of the Rings-style adaptation of Wales' seminal Celtic myths. The stories have seen many different interpretations over the years including several translations and cartoon adaptations. The name Mabinogion was given by William Pughe, an 18th century antiquarian, to a selection of narrative works found in two great ancient books of Wales. They are the Red Book of Hergest, now kept in Oxford's Bodleian library, and the White Book of Rhydderch, held in the National Library of Wales, both of which feature the relationship between the mundane and the magical. Ms Davies has reinvented the tales, while taking care to keep the rhythm and tempo of the originals. In her work, she examines the stories' themes and explains aspects of medieval Welsh society. She said, "They feature 11 very different stories, some of them are about King Arthur and his knights fighting giants and witches, others are to do with Celtic mythology, where people get transformed into animals. "There is also a tale of a red dragon fighting a white one - the red dragon symbolising Wales. "This is the first major translation I have worked on. I received the contract eight years ago and it took me three years to complete, working on and off, juggling lots of things. "I did my PhD on The Mabinogion, on its narrative and style. I'm very interested in the storytelling techniques so I tried to make the translation one that can be read out loud." She read an extract of her version of the story at the Hay Festival of Literature to an audience of around 100, in the style it would have been performed in the distant days when it was first told. S4C made an animated film about the tales in 2002 and Dr Ian Hughes, a lecturer on The Mabinogion, at the University of Aberystwyth, Wales, believes the ancient stories would be ideal material for a new fantasy blockbuster. "Throughout the centuries, everyone has realised the importance of this work," he said. "Five of the stories are Arthurian in nature and he has played a major part in our imaginations here in Wales and that of the literati of many countries in Europe. "But we in Wales feel even closer to these tales because we can plot the destinations mentioned in the stories on the map. "Arthur hunts a wild boar from Ireland, that swims across to Pembrokeshire and ravages parts of South Wales. "The Lln Peninsula and Arfon in North Wales are mentioned. "And Mochdre and Mochnant -'pig stream' in Powys - are referred to, although the Arthurian-like waterfall at Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant is not mentioned. "We can hear about these myths that occurred in the places where we live and they appear to be more real to us." But Dr Hughes believes that while movies like The Sword in the Stone and Excalibur have been made based on Arthur's journeys in England and on the Continent, Wales has been neglected. "Wales does not seem to have a fair airing in the tales - we don't seem to be as good at the Irish at getting funding and pushing ourselves," he said. "But there is plenty of scope for a blockbuster adaptation of these tales. "One of the great things about Sioned's book is that it may well lead to a renewed interest in The Mabinogion." From I C Wales
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Post by Heron on Jan 19, 2007 15:58:12 GMT -1
Yes, Sioned Davies has already published two extensive studies of Y Mabinogi one in Welsh and another in English. She concentrates on narrative structure and construction rather than the broader mythological aspects, finding parallels in oral techniques of the 'cyfarwyddwyr'.
Bollard's book is just the Four Branches but this new one looks like it covers all the tales.
Of course, theres always the original.... (makes a nod to the counsellors of perfection).
Greg
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Post by megli on Jul 13, 2007 13:42:15 GMT -1
Will Parker's book is out, available on amazon, and he's just sent me a review copy. I don't always agree with his translations or conclusions, but all of them are interesting and the book is full of useful ideas.
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Post by Lee on Jul 13, 2007 13:50:45 GMT -1
the Sioned book is great. lovely little book - with a ribbon bookmark ( i am easily pleased)
i am reviewing the Will Parker book for Pentacle magazine. shall be reading it later this month when i grab hold of the review copy. based upon the extracts online it look like a very good read indeed.
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 13, 2007 18:12:30 GMT -1
I have the Bolland/Griffiths book, beautiful modern edition. and a version from 1955, by Gwyn Jones (Oxford University press) that I was read as a child. -- On the subject of Guest/The Mabinogion/Rhiannon, there is a huge statue of Rhiannon proposed for Merthyr, and it will get built too, if I have anything to do with it www.druidry.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=23185-- (sorry for going off topic for a sec - carry on, this discussion is great)
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Post by Lee on Jul 13, 2007 20:20:46 GMT -1
Merthyr? a bit out of her range sounds like a fantastic idea mind you. any images of the proposal? normally i HATE statuary that is realistic, i prefer my deities to be a little more abstract. back on topic. i have the Guest illustrated, Gantz, Jones and Jones, P K Ford and the Sioned Davies editions. might have to get the Bolland one to finish the set.
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Post by Lee on Jul 13, 2007 20:22:56 GMT -1
just looked at the link... that Rhiannon statue looks amazing. i hope it wins. will definitely travel to go visit it and have a bottle at her feet.
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 14, 2007 7:05:37 GMT -1
yeah, Merthyr isn't her traditional stomping ground, but its appropriate because of the Lady Guest connection I suppose. It isn't just a "woman on horseback", the artist Toin Adams has designed the whole thing in a cultural/spiritual context. You can read her proposals here: www.landmarkwales.org/english/popup.php?imageid=199www.landmarkwales.org/english/popup.php?imageid=198www.landmarkwales.org/english/popup.php?imageid=196She's done fantastic Green Men in the past, so her sympathies are ever-so slightly pagan Landmark Wales would see it as purely a piece of art, with a cultural bent. However, I see it as more than that, I see it as a modern pagan site, Rhiannon/Epona riding out to reclaim the land that has been so devastated over the past 200 years, though industry (and then the lack of). But then, I'm an old romantic you can sign the petition here: petitions.pm.gov.uk/rhiannonlmwales/----- again, my apologies to the mods for the OTness, I couldn't help myself
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Post by Lee on Jul 14, 2007 7:43:42 GMT -1
having read the proposals too im even more in favour of this idea. it looks stunning and her reasoning behind doing this piece is also rather inspiring.
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Post by Craig on Jul 14, 2007 8:50:29 GMT -1
Love it - signed petition, but noted that it had only four supporters so far. We need to spread word of this far and wide!
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