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Post by redraven on Apr 5, 2008 17:13:02 GMT -1
Firstly.....
LR & BB, if after reading this thread you consider it to be inappropriate, feel free to delete it.
And so onwards......
With the recent withdrawal of established members, I have today done a short meditation on the subject of Brython. The result was what I can only describe as being in a room full of people all shouting questions at you at the same time. It is something I have not experienced before and if I could remember every one then I could fill this forum for the next 6 months with questions.
So what I am about to do is to condense a few of what I consider to be the most important and ask of you your opinions please.
Firstly, what practical applications have you applied to your everyday spirituality that has come directly from Brythonic study? ( I realise that for some, it may be that Brythonic study has no bearing on their spirituality and could just be an academic exercise.) Would I be wrong to assume that Brythony could ever fill a spiritual need, or have I misunderstood the direction that the original members set up this project wanted it to go?
Is this project merely a response to the spiritual and historical void left in these islands by successive invasions from the near continent, almost like a collective amnesia that is starting to be recognized by individuals?
Do we need a set of principles (non enforceable but a set of commonly held beliefs) that could define what it means to be Brythonic, or would this be interpreted as dogma?
It could be that I cannot define much practical application to what is currently being discussed, and therefore the questions asked could be for my own definition, and these tough questions are for me to answer, however, I am interested in others opinions if they are willing to share, assuming I haven't overstepped the mark!!!
RR
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Post by Tegernacus on Apr 5, 2008 17:56:53 GMT -1
For me, the quest is for truth, to remove the fluff and crap from neo-paganism. Neo-pagans calling on Rhiannon then the Morrighan and then some Greek goddess... useless. Paganism, at least in terms of these islands, was a local, tribal thing. I don't want to be calling an Irish god in my ritual, I want the Gods of my ancestors, the gods of my tribe. That is what Brython is for me. As information is uncovered, or guessed at, I work it... but I'd rather have one or two local gods, one or two local customs that I know is right, than several pantheons of deities and customs that have no bearing on me as a person, where I live, or where I come from.
"Do we need a set of principles (non enforceable but a set of commonly held beliefs) that could define what it means to be Brythonic, or would this be interpreted as dogma? "
Absolutely. Although there is a fine line between principles and dogma, we DO need to set down our commonly held beliefs. WE know what we think, but for others joining us or for the curious, they wouldn't really know unless they read every thread on here. These need to be stated, in a series of articles. Not definitive, this is the truth-and-the-way type things, they can be quite open, but we need to stop talking (or shouting) and put together what we know and think AT THE MOMENT. As this changes, through discoveries, experimentation, personal experience, then the articles can change, but they need to be there, and they need to be there soon.
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Post by Blackbird on Apr 5, 2008 18:30:03 GMT -1
Wow, you like to ask the big ones! For me personally, over time, I've been putting flesh on the bones of my experiences. The gods came first, but I felt that to understand more about them and those who have honoured them in the past, I needed to broaden my knowledge. Firstly - because the big mistake most modern pagans make (imho) is to try to separate the religious bits from the rest of pre-xian society. I believe that to be impossible and unwise - spirituality is integral to a culture and can't be lifted out. Therefore, I've done my best over the years to understand as much as I can about Brythonic culture, languages (still at a basic level there!), music, mythology, science, etc. Secondly - to help me substantiate my own experiences. For example, if I have a vision of a god looking a particular way or bearing something particular, it can be hard to know if it's a true vision or just the result of wishful thinking/too much cheese. If I can look back through the old sources - such as the Romano British iconography - and find an image of that god looking that way, then my experience is substantiated. Not sure what you mean by this. The aim of Brython is to encourage people to look more deeply, be that through academic style research or through experience. The increased understanding and wisdom that this (hopefully) brings should mean a more fulfilling spirituality for the individual. Wading around in the shallows is ultimately unsatisfying. No, it is not merely that. Some members may have that idea as their motivation, but not all. I don't think there is a void - instead, you've got an onion-like set of layers, which hopefully, we can start to peel back. However, sometimes we might find that the layers themselves are beautiful and profound... It's a tricky question. I do think we need to define ourselves clearly and our mission statement already does that well, though we could expand on that with additional articles. I think we can say where our individual interests and loyalties lie, but as far as I'm concerned, Brython is open to anyone willing to put in the time and effort to do this deep digging into Brythonic culture and spirituality.
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Post by redraven on Apr 5, 2008 19:17:50 GMT -1
Thanks BB & Teg, I'll post some thoughts later
RR
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Post by Midori on Apr 5, 2008 20:03:40 GMT -1
Hmmm, Challenging, indeed.
To a great extent I follow what Tegernacus has said about mixing pantheons. This is one reason I am Animist rather than Polytheist.
I also have the problem of not knowing the Breton Gods, although they are my heritage. With regard to the Hero Tales of the Mabinogion, The persons described, with few exceptions appear to be exceptionally gifted humans, rather than deities.
I have been through my Neo- Pagan stage, and hopefully survived, but I may have swung further from the centre than most in the opposite direction.
No God or Goddess has laid claim to me, so I really am unsure of whether my place is among you or not, but if not, I don't know where I should be looking.
cheers, Midori
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Post by redraven on Apr 6, 2008 11:07:20 GMT -1
Thanks for that Midori
More thoughts..... I think that this project is both stimulating and extremely frustrating. I have nothing but admiration for the academics here, who would appear to be both extremely knowledgeable and articulate well, although sometimes I find myself mystified at the great lengths of the details discussed, but that is no bad thing generally, as it forces me to think and reassess my ideas. However, I do think that some form of process is needed as a basic structure for the more feral of us to use so we can have some useful input to this project. Of course it is no bad thing for people to study the latest academic thinking and to apply them accordingly, however, speaking personally, this is not one of my strengths. Not because I am academically stupid, about 10 years ago, just out of interest, I sat the MENSA supervised IQ test and they certified my IQ to be 141, not bad for someone who left school without bothering to pick up his CSE certificates, but because some form of practical structure could be used by interested people to help them participate and submit some ideas that could help build up the data base (so to speak) of Brython and maybe even give the academics more food for thought. As you may have guessed, I have certain ideas about this, a lot of them have occurred to me in the last 24 hours, what I need from members here are their own feelings about the direction of this project, and whether this would be acceptable in principle, or am I way off target, reading what is not there (Not for the first time!) and would be better to keep my ideas to myself.
RR
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Post by littleraven on Apr 6, 2008 11:26:46 GMT -1
Firstly..... LR & BB, if after reading this thread you consider it to be inappropriate, feel free to delete it. I don't think it's at all inappropriate, can I ask why you would think so? And so onwards...... With the recent withdrawal of established members, I have today done a short meditation on the subject of Brython. The result was what I can only describe as being in a room full of people all shouting questions at you at the same time. It is something I have not experienced before and if I could remember every one then I could fill this forum for the next 6 months with questions. The fact that there are so many possible questions is one of the reason why the concept surfaced in the first place. That we can ask so many questions highlights that we actually do have a wealth of material to draw from. The intention of Brython was to create a common, defined purpose with everyone considering the evidence in the context of the British mainland. Where this falls short is when people lose that focus and begin to argue the validity their own perspectives and discount others rather than attempt to discover the common Truths beneath it all. There are a variety of methods available, be it personal discovery through to the llyfyrion, none more or less valuable than the other. But *all* complementary. Firstly, what practical applications have you applied to your everyday spirituality that has come directly from Brythonic study? ( I realise that for some, it may be that Brythonic study has no bearing on their spirituality and could just be an academic exercise.) My entire basis of undersatnding has come from studying Brythonic material. I will use any other source to help undersatnd, or to flesh it out, but when you hear me speak I can honestly say I speak as someone whose love is the soil the stand on, the people who have lived on it and the stories they have told. I can find inspiration in historical heroes such as Caratacos or Buddug, Wallace or Tyler, Wilberforce or Bevin. Mythological heroes such as Myrddin, Arthur or Robin. all are relevant, but all are *here*. Would I be wrong to assume that Brythony could ever fill a spiritual need, or have I misunderstood the direction that the original members set up this project wanted it to go? Brython was never intended to fill a spiritual need in itself, as that would imply that the intent of Brython was to create a new 'order'. Brython was always intended to be one of a shared purpose that people could then do what they want with on their own journeys. Is this project merely a response to the spiritual and historical void left in these islands by successive invasions from the near continent, almost like a collective amnesia that is starting to be recognized by individuals? In a way it could be seen as that, but the void is more one of understanding than actual vacuum. The majority of groups out there preach a version of spriitual history that is often very far removed from any kind of truth, and this in turn muddies the water even further. Unless some people are preapred to try to discover what may *actually* have been possible then we will never progress any further in our concious understandings. Do we need a set of principles (non enforceable but a set of commonly held beliefs) that could define what it means to be Brythonic, or would this be interpreted as dogma? Basically, yes we do need that dogma. Whilst dogma has become a post-church derogatory term,it's actual meaning is one of the commonly held beliefs. A group need a set of commonly held beliefs if it is to exist as a group. It does not need to be a method of control, and it is always possible to put in place mechanisms that ensure that control will not become a possibility. It could be that I cannot define much practical application to what is currently being discussed, and therefore the questions asked could be for my own definition, and these tough questions are for me to answer, however, I am interested in others opinions if they are willing to share, assuming I haven't overstepped the mark!!! RR How on Earth can you have overstepped the mark? Questions such as these are immensly important and extrmely valuable. It may be useful to turn a question back at you - what practical application are you looking for? Through the Brythonic traditions we have the names of British Gods, their functions and locations through the interpratatio Romano. We have inspirational British heroes through recorded history. I can stand on the shores of Mon looking towards Gwynedd and feel a surge of pride at the courage of those distant ancestors in the face of the loss of all they knew. I can feel the same surge of pride when I stand in Kent looking towards France, and consider my grandfather as he sailed towards the trenches in 1914, or my my uncle in his landing craft just 60yrs ago. I can stand on the site of a 1st century BC roundhouse and marvel at the strength of ordinary people in their everyday lives, in much the same way I may marvel at the site of neolithic house, or a medieval house, or a Victorian house. But what binds them all together is that were *here*, in Britain. Hiraeth.
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Post by littleraven on Apr 6, 2008 13:28:37 GMT -1
As you may have guessed, I have certain ideas about this, a lot of them have occurred to me in the last 24 hours, what I need from members here are their own feelings about the direction of this project, and whether this would be acceptable in principle, or am I way off target, reading what is not there (Not for the first time!) and would be better to keep my ideas to myself. RR All you need to do is mention those ideas and the thoughts will flow. You may find there arethings you thought that others here have visited already (it's what I usually find). As for practical structures, that is *exactly* the purpose behind the 'hypothetical question' and 'significance of Sunwise' threads.
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Post by redraven on Apr 6, 2008 18:01:00 GMT -1
I don't think it's at all inappropriate, can I ask why you would think so?. It's just manners LR, I find if I approach a subject I am not sure of it's good practice to ask, probably says more about my frustration at this type of medium and it's potential duplicity at times, so it may be slightly defensive of me and probably says a little about my age . As for turning the question back on me, I will elaborate what has been shown to me later, just hope that what I am considering has not been suggested before ;D. Thanks for taking the time to reply. RR
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Post by littleraven on Apr 6, 2008 23:29:01 GMT -1
As for turning the question back on me, I will elaborate what has been shown to me later, just hope that what I am considering has not been suggested before ;D. Actually, if it's been suggested before but you don't know then you must be onto a good idea. LR
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Post by Lee on Apr 7, 2008 8:58:16 GMT -1
the gods i honour, the myths i read, the history i read are all brythonic (with some exceptions but that isnt always my choice)
any study is a way to further my relationship with the gods, with the spirits of the land and with the land itself.
nope. you would be correct to assume that. my understanding of the project is that it aims to help those who want to head down that road get there in one piece with a good footing.
this sounds reasonable.
yep. dogma isnt all bad. a good set of agreed foundations is a good thing.
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Post by Blackbird on Apr 7, 2008 9:05:28 GMT -1
I think there might be a problem of perception. Thing is, boards such like this are for discussion and the more in depth a discussion becomes, the more obscure or academic it might seem. That's just the nature of an internet forum. However, within Brython, we have an equal emphasis on research and experience. When we get the main Brython boards going, we'll be looking at ways to balance this and we'll also be developing things away from the internet. Camps are already happening and that's fantastic We can also look at other face to face meetings, attendance at conferences, bardic events and perhaps some shared projects between members. It's true, since we had the idea for Brython, it's taken far longer than we anticipated to get things moving properly. So there has been a sense of hiatus while LR wrestles with unhelpful hosting companies and also while others of us have been pulled away temporarily to other concerns. This has led to frustration and that's understandable - but we're now determined to get the project moving forward quickly.
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Post by redraven on Apr 7, 2008 14:56:45 GMT -1
Thanks for the reply Lee, 48 hours after the event, I think I have finally got my head around what happened to me. This has lead me to speculate there are 4 possible interpretations: 1. It was my subconscious mind getting through to me. 2. It was produced by external influences and I merely received the info. 3. I am developing an overactive imagination driven by ego. 4. It's time to get sanctioned under the mental health act. I am hoping options 3 & 4 are not applicable. I now understand what was said and shown to me and what I must do, which, for me, will lead to having to share here my own understanding about how I and hopefully others, can make some different types of input to this site. This is why I could be perceived as acting as a bit of a primadonna at the moment, dragging out what it is I have to say, however, I have never experienced anything like this before and it is severely testing my own resolve to share that which has deeply touched me. It may be that when I have shared what has been told to me, the general feeling maybe "what was all the fuss about?" or maybe "thats a non starter" however, I feel it is something I must do. Look for the new thread called "Feral involvement" in the next few days. PS, If option 4 becomes the only option, can I call on you all as character witnesses ? RR
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Post by Lee on Apr 7, 2008 15:00:39 GMT -1
hi RR, regardless of where it came from - share it. just realised too - pentacle chat room last night
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 6:24:52 GMT -1
Firstly, what practical applications have you applied to your everyday spirituality that has come directly from Brythonic study? ( I realise that for some, it may be that Brythonic study has no bearing on their spirituality and could just be an academic exercise.) Would I be wrong to assume that Brythony could ever fill a spiritual need, or have I misunderstood the direction that the original members set up this project wanted it to go? Your question reminds me of a chap called Reg who goes to moots in London, his first and only question to any speaker was on the lines of 'And how does this work in your practice?'. An excellient line of questioning. The most practical application for me was the realisation that my spirituality and religion doesn't have to be nor should it be separate from the rest of my life. So often I see people put aspects of their lives into little boxes to be opened up as and when needed. It is part of the whole not a individual part in my opinion. Other practical applications involve reaching new depths within my practice, it can be discovering older names for beings or plants I work with from local folklore which serves to help my understanding of their place and lore. I think a good set of principles are a great way to have a mutual starting point for discussion of ideas, if the principles become set in rigid stone when there is a chance we may lose something valuable because at first sight it is not what the principles call Brythonic.
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Post by bodlon on Apr 8, 2008 17:13:42 GMT -1
I'm new, and not strictly a member as such, but after some reflection I wanted to pop in and offer some input. Here's hoping it's useful. Actually, I turned to recon in an effort to give my everyday spirituality form. I'd been through a long period of avoiding the issue of gods altogether, and when I was ready to come back, this is the general direction I found myself pointed in. I don't think so. Then again, if it is, I'm in a heap of trouble... That said, I think it's all in the application. I'm anti-dogma, but I tend to be pro-principles. As someone who identifies with the CR movement -- I know, I know, the C-word -- I tend to like where they're coming from. You/we/people in general seeking to reconstruct a pre-Christian paganism could do a lot worse than the CR FAQ as a jumping-off point. In particular, the things I like about the CR FAQ are its openness, the fact that it lays down reasonable guidelines and expectations, and the fact that it's non-dogmatic. It doesn't say necessarily what to believe, but it does point to a set of tools and criteria with which an individual or group can build a credible practice, and does put the burden on individuals to be honest about what they're doing. I think that's really important, as a lot of groups in the pagan community misrepresent themselves (intentionally or accidentally) in an effort to build legitimacy. There's nothing wrong with building things yourself, or putting personal experience into practice, but there's a real responsibility involved, I think, in dusting off these lost gods and practices and honoring them in a consistent way, too. Whether or not that's Brython isn't really for me to say. But as someone with an interest, I know that's what would draw me.
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Post by littleraven on Apr 8, 2008 22:21:29 GMT -1
I'm anti-dogma, but I tend to be pro-principles. As someone who identifies with the CR movement -- I know, I know, the C-word -- I tend to like where they're coming from. You/we/people in general seeking to reconstruct a pre-Christian paganism could do a lot worse than the CR FAQ as a jumping-off point. The link doesn't work, here is the origianl URL: www.paganachd.com/faq/In particular, the things I like about the CR FAQ are its openness, the fact that it lays down reasonable guidelines and expectations, and the fact that it's non-dogmatic. It doesn't say necessarily what to believe, but it does point to a set of tools and criteria with which an individual or group can build a credible practice, and does put the burden on individuals to be honest about what they're doing. I think that's really important, as a lot of groups in the pagan community misrepresent themselves (intentionally or accidentally) in an effort to build legitimacy. There's nothing wrong with building things yourself, or putting personal experience into practice, but there's a real responsibility involved, I think, in dusting off these lost gods and practices and honoring them in a consistent way, too. Whether or not that's Brython isn't really for me to say. But as someone with an interest, I know that's what would draw me. For a 'non-dogmatic' system, here is a little anecdote. I was involved with a couple of the American CR groups a few years ago. I was ejected from 'Whiteoak', Erynn Rowan Lauries group IIRC (one of the poeple who wrote the CR FAQ). What heinous crime was I ejected for? Because I pointed out that Carmina Gadelica might not represent defiitive ancient Celtic wisdom, that the people Camichael spoke to may not have been the torchbearers of the faith. They may indeed just have been going through the motions. I wonder what definition of 'non-dogmatic' is appropriate there?
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Post by bodlon on Apr 8, 2008 23:52:40 GMT -1
Wow. Okay.
It sounds like you had a bad experience with a specific group of people, not a set of principles. I'm sorry it left a bad taste in your mouth, but you know what? Not my fault, not my fight, and not my problem. I'm not affiliated with, or even aware of, Whiteoak. I do know Erynn socially online, and think highly of her and her work, but I'm a big boy. I can have friends that don't mix. As for the Carmina Gadelica, that's a little more North than I'm aiming. Sorry. Can't help you.
Right. Now that that's settled, can we have an actual discussion about the matter at hand instead of pointing the finger and shouting at people?
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Post by Blackbird on Apr 9, 2008 8:20:18 GMT -1
I've been hanging round the edges of the CR lot for many years, and have a few real life friends who call themselves CR. (They are also the bolshie ones who get thrown out of things...) I think the approach is useful, but for me, the living traditions and the land here will always be my primary inspiration. My motivation is always 'what do we do now'? As a friend of mine wisely put it, we take the best bits forward. Knowing about the past is vital, but the main thing is how we live our traditions, how we relate to our human and non-human communities, what ethics we aspire to etc. That's my 2p worth, anyhow
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