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Post by Adam on Oct 8, 2008 12:37:37 GMT -1
If someone could take my point forward in my absence, I would be grateful... this hits the nail pretty much on the area I was interested in... If anyone is offended by this, it is my view and experience and view only.
Ritual as practised within evolving traditions/religions meet the needs of a community and form a cohesive whole... whatever one's opinion of the Christian church as a whole, it is something that some forms of the church can do superbly well, bring people closer to the experience of their god through group ritual...
One of the reasons they form a cohesive whole is that the behaviour is not divorced from community but integral to it... effective ritual has a "deep grammar" and a "deep structure" that is made accessible in the experience of the ritual itself... and through access to this deep structure allows for changes in consciousness that take further the purpose of the ritual... so we have rites of passage into man and womanhood, through various stages of birth,life and death, which are not simply marking points in a life but play an active role in facilitating the changes necessary at those points.
When an organisation endorses anybody writing and submitting rituals, it denies this community cohesiveness and evolution, except in the rare cases of genius maybe akin to poetic genius. Writing, and then enacting, ritual, while I do not claim that it has no value whatsoever, is in danger of becoming play acting and in my experience, rarely has the power necessary to cement a community and transform the participants.
Start a community with a sense of identity... if that identity is valued... then ritual will follow, as will participants and leaders, from which a unique religious identity will naturally and organically form
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Post by Lee on Oct 8, 2008 12:46:00 GMT -1
Adam, i will print it out and read it out for you if you wish?
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Post by Adam on Oct 8, 2008 12:50:01 GMT -1
Adam, i will print it out and read it out for you if you wish? Thank you Lee
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Post by Blackbird on Oct 8, 2008 15:25:37 GMT -1
That's a great agenda, but it's a _lot_ of stuff to get through - I think each of those topics could easily take up the entire meeting. I feel a bit daunted looking at all that! It might be an idea to view this as a starting point, during which we can note down the main viewpoints as a basis for future discussion, rather than trying to completely answer each agenda item. Otherwise we'll be a permanent fixture in that roundhouse for the next month
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Post by Blackbird on Oct 8, 2008 15:26:43 GMT -1
By the way, how many people are expected? Obviously, CF will be well represented, but I imagine there will also be lots of folk from Stefans group, and possibly others?
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Post by Adam on Oct 8, 2008 18:30:42 GMT -1
Aye Lee... if you feel at the moment that my point is neither pertinent or has been covered in discussion, don't read it for the sake of it... that's cool... I leave that to your judgement as an attendee and will be happy whatever
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Post by Lee on Oct 8, 2008 20:27:33 GMT -1
i think there is certainly a lot to cover, though some wont take long (the ritual bit and the probs with druidry), some aspects certainly will - its good that we have all night!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 21:18:13 GMT -1
I am clad someone as pointed that out about Epon being Gaulish
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 21:31:44 GMT -1
To oghma I am not sure I would agree with you on Norse and saxon as being similar to Brythonic. I found the northern traditons to very diffrent in the way they feel, but there also quite a lot technical Differences (the nine virtues ect).
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Post by jez on Oct 9, 2008 5:56:41 GMT -1
I don't think anyone told Epona She couldn't come to Britain If you wander down to the New Forest, She is there. -- Jez
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Post by jez on Oct 9, 2008 5:57:41 GMT -1
The Nine Noble virtues are a modern invention.
--
Jez
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Post by jez on Oct 9, 2008 5:59:26 GMT -1
And Brython is a northern tradition, since we are - last time I looked - in the north of Europe.
--
Jez
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Post by Craig on Oct 9, 2008 6:21:41 GMT -1
I don't think anyone told Epona She couldn't come to Britain If you wander down to the New Forest, She is there. Jez Ah that's probably because of them bl**dy Normans who set it up. What did the Normans ever do for us eh? ;D
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Post by Craig on Oct 9, 2008 6:24:48 GMT -1
i think there is certainly a lot to cover, though some wont take long (the ritual bit and the probs with druidry), some aspects certainly will - its good that we have all night! Indeed, though I am hoping thatw e can get past all the gripes and moans about the current state of druidry etc., reasonably quickly. The real driver here is the serious business of defining what we wish to see and participate in as a common, yet inclusive, vision. The level of interest, both positive and negative, that has been generated by this event ubderscores both the desire and the need for change.
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Post by Craig on Oct 9, 2008 6:26:06 GMT -1
Aye Lee... if you feel at the moment that my point is neither pertinent or has been covered in discussion, don't read it for the sake of it... that's cool... I leave that to your judgement as an attendee and will be happy whatever Lee will read it [thanks Lee] because we wish to include those who could not be there. I assume he will choose the right moment, even if it reinforces what is already being said.
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Post by potia on Oct 9, 2008 8:49:16 GMT -1
Here are my initial reponses to some of the points raised in Stefan's agenda. If it seems appropriate I'd be grateful if someone attending can feed them into the over all discussion. I agree with Blackbird that it is a huge and very ambitious agenda even for a meeting that may go on for the entire night. I will look forward with great interest to any reports from those of you who are able to attend Anyway here it is: Flag Fen meeting agenda Comments inserted in italics THE AGENDA 1/ What do we feel is lacking in modern Druidry? What is it we want from it? Clarity and focus. It can not be denied that modern Druidry encompasses many paths. It is highly unlikely that this gathering will change many of the people walking those paths but if those gathered here can speak clearly about what they stand for in areas where many paths meet such as the Druid Network then those who seek will have a better chance at finding the support they are looking for.2/ What can we do to create a new culture that feels more spiritually mature and incorporates a sense of religiousness to our practice without enforcing a strict set of rules? Listen to one another and learn from each other.3/ What form of dogma is acceptable? Here the main focus is on religious theology, not just whether or not we use drums, or gather in a circle etc. 4/ How can we create a sense of cohesiveness within this new direction? Open communication among the involved parties would probably be a good step.5/ What can we learn from the mistakes of the past/present, re the modern Druid tradition? Why is the counter culture creating a negative influence on the Druid tradition? Why is our practice becoming watered down? I don’t think the practice of modern Druidry is becoming watered down as such, it’s just there are more of us. Some parts are growing stronger, others weaker. The number of paths through the forest is increasing. Some aspects of modern Druidry are finding deeper pagan roots, others are sticking with the more philosophical branches of revivalist Druidry. As the numbers increase so people are realising more and more that Druidry has become a very confusing set of paths.6/ What do we want the basic structure of our rituals to include? Personally I’d like to see acknowledgement of the spirit of place being the unseen (to most of us) host to any ritual. I’d like to see ancestors of blood, place and spiritual path acknowledged and honoured. I’d like to see some form of sharing of food and drink with a portion offered to the gods – something a bit like the Heathen practices of Symbel and Blot. 7/ The gods and goddesses. Why do they remain elusive within group ritual? What is it about the substance of spiritual experience within solitary practice that becomes lost in group ritual? Discuss individuality verses an agreed understanding of Druidic spirituality. Speaking as one who has attended and written/prepared a number of group rituals for various purposes and for various sizes of groups one of the factors that is apparent to me is that a group ritual often includes compromises. In preparing a ritual for a group I usually have to take into account their understandings and backgrounds as well as my own and often there are significant differences in that. The ones that work best in my experience are the ones that have a clear purpose and a shared understanding of both the purpose of the rite and deities to be invited. Rituals for rites of passage in my experience tend to have the clearest purposes. Seasonal rites vary because the time means different things to different people present and so the focus becomes blurred. Even those of us who have relationships with the same deity will have different perspectives and experiences of that deity and that is not something easily shared.
My most meaningful experiences of group rituals have taken place with a small group of people I have deep spiritual connections with. We don’t do things exactly the same way in our personal practices but we trust each other and can share on a deep level. There are a couple of people I haven’t shared ritual with that I believe I would also experience this deeper sense of connection with and they are individuals that I felt a strong sense of connection with from the first meeting.Will it create a sense of unity to know some one else is doing more or less the same as you are? Possibly but for me it’s less about individual actions and more about shared understandings and underlying beliefs.WHAT DO WE BELIEVE??? I don’t know about what we believe but I believe that there is a strengthening of polytheist beliefs and experiences within the various paths of Druidry. I believe that polytheists within the wider family of druidry are seeking out other polytheists and looking for common ground. I believe we could be taking part in the birth of a new and powerful family of British Pagan religions and that this meeting could be part of that birthing process.
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Post by Craig on Oct 9, 2008 11:20:05 GMT -1
Excellent, thanks Potia. Another response we need to carry with us to Flag Fen.
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Post by Lee on Oct 9, 2008 13:25:15 GMT -1
I don't think anyone told Epona She couldn't come to Britain If you wander down to the New Forest, She is there. -- Jez i dont think anyone said she couldnt come here. she is not however from here.
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Post by Lee on Oct 9, 2008 13:29:29 GMT -1
And Brython is a northern tradition, since we are - last time I looked - in the north of Europe. -- Jez technically we are midwest europe. eurpoe goes all the way up into the arctic circle, we sit roughly in the middle and off to the west. europe extends from 45-80ish degrees north of the equator. we lie 50-60 degrees north. t just happens that much of the european landmass around us happens to be underwater for the time being.
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