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Epona
Oct 27, 2008 14:19:47 GMT -1
Post by Lee on Oct 27, 2008 14:19:47 GMT -1
And what if the 'solar disk' on the coins is actually an offering dish? -- Jez IIRC, most of the 'solar discs' have spokes to them like wheels and as such are assumed to be solar representations. i guess it would be worth looking at the Epona iconography where she has the dish and seing how it is represented - either as a featureless disc or with spokes too.
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Epona
Oct 27, 2008 15:14:33 GMT -1
Post by Blackbird on Oct 27, 2008 15:14:33 GMT -1
Yes, the solar wheel is usually a mandala type thing, an equal armed cross in a circle. (Like my tattoo!) The patera is, afaik, always just a shallow dish. Definitely not the same thing being represented.
Of course, we're only guessing that the wheel is solar, but that seems to be the best explanation. I like it, as it ties in with the idea of chariot wheels, the passage of time, the abundance and fertility shown in Her imagery, and that of horses generally etc. Plus my UPG that Her mythology, whatever it was, may have been tied in with the winter solstice.
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Epona
Oct 27, 2008 17:47:37 GMT -1
Post by Lee on Oct 27, 2008 17:47:37 GMT -1
Plus my UPG that Her mythology, whatever it was, may have been tied in with the winter solstice. i hope this doesnt sound like to much of a grilling but did your UPG come before or after you found out about Eponalia?
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Epona
Oct 28, 2008 7:14:55 GMT -1
Post by Tegernacus on Oct 28, 2008 7:14:55 GMT -1
dunno see, I've spent the last 24 hours look through iron-age coins, and here's my opinion:
it's what is above the horse that fascinates me. Stars. Constellations. Another wheel, that is obviously a sun-wheel (although on some there is a star-wheel, and a comet or rainbow on one). On one coin, the horse is tethered to this top "sun" wheel, the symbolism of which is obvious. It's never shown tethered to the bottom wheel... hmmm.. maybe the bottom wheel is the earth? nah, reeks of alchemy. I think the bottom wheel is just that, a chariot wheel. Shows the status of the tribe. other coins have, instead of a wheel, a net for a tribe by the sea (fishermen rather than charioteers). It's not an offering dish anyhow.
Although, if you look at distribution of coins, Wales, Cumbria, Cornwall don't get them, it's only the "posh" tribes in the SouthEast (things never change rotfl). Methinks that if we didn't get the horsey coins, maybe we never got Epona either. Dunno, I'm babbling now.
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Epona
Oct 28, 2008 9:15:13 GMT -1
Post by Blackbird on Oct 28, 2008 9:15:13 GMT -1
Not surprising - I think horse-coins are linked to horse trading on the continent. In Cornwall, tin would have been more important as a commodity, and the further reaches of Britain were further away from this lucrative business.
Lee - it was afterwards, I should call it speculation rather than UPG, at least, about the date. The Grey Lady was obviously important enough to have her bit in some of the Saturnalia celebrations, but I reckon, not quite important enough to usurp the main Roman gods from the actual solstice / sun rebirth time. After all, we know that She was mostly popular among the lower classes (from contemporary poetry and literature such as the Golden Ass) and the cavalry, who would probably have been auxillieries. Eponalia was probably not something that the toffs would have bothered with, or wanted to elevate.
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Epona
Oct 28, 2008 9:26:19 GMT -1
Post by Lee on Oct 28, 2008 9:26:19 GMT -1
Although, if you look at distribution of coins, Wales, Cumbria, Cornwall don't get them, it's only the "posh" tribes in the SouthEast (things never change rotfl). Methinks that if we didn't get the horsey coins, maybe we never got Epona either. Dunno, I'm babbling now. ah now that is interesting... i wonder if it is a landscape thing? horses etc being more of an open plains and 'lowland' thing where chariots and riding were easier. whilst in cornwall, wales and cumbria other animals were more prominent. which wo8ld kind of explain my feeling about Epona and Rhiannon's horsiness not 'taking' in west wales. i think that the larger lowland areas tended to have larger settlements - be a bit more settled and centralised rather than the smaller family type farmsteads and villages (archaeological evidence of iron and bronze age settlements show this - J Davies 'history of wales') this would mean coinage was less neccessary in those areas hence we dont fine em.
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Epona
Oct 28, 2008 9:26:42 GMT -1
Post by Lee on Oct 28, 2008 9:26:42 GMT -1
BB - thats cool, works for me
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Epona
Oct 28, 2008 22:05:07 GMT -1
Post by Francis on Oct 28, 2008 22:05:07 GMT -1
i think that the larger lowland areas tended to have larger settlements - be a bit more settled and centralised rather than the smaller family type farmsteads and villages (archaeological evidence of iron and bronze age settlements show this - J Davies 'history of wales') I thought that dispersed farmsteads rather than villages/towns was the brythonic (and later Welsh) way?
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Epona
Oct 28, 2008 22:10:02 GMT -1
Post by megli on Oct 28, 2008 22:10:02 GMT -1
We are talking very small villages! A few houses of several families clustered together, as opposed to a steading which would contain one family and its slaves. Slaves....hmm. Our Brythonic (and Romano-British ancestors) kept slaves. Should we be apologising?!
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Epona
Oct 29, 2008 6:27:28 GMT -1
Post by Tegernacus on Oct 29, 2008 6:27:28 GMT -1
nah. it was culturally normal, and we made slaves of each other, not any particular race. As long as we don't suggest resurrecting the practice, I think we can let it lie
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Epona
Oct 29, 2008 9:18:12 GMT -1
Post by Lee on Oct 29, 2008 9:18:12 GMT -1
I thought that dispersed farmsteads rather than villages/towns was the brythonic (and later Welsh) way? as megli said, they were teeny villages if i remember, i will scan the map in the book. essentially here is a trend for larger settlments to be found in the south east and in the western parts of wales especially, they were small one or two hut farms.
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Epona
Oct 29, 2008 10:16:17 GMT -1
Post by arth_frown on Oct 29, 2008 10:16:17 GMT -1
We are talking very small villages! A few houses of several families clustered together, as opposed to a steading which would contain one family and its slaves. Slaves....hmm. Our Brythonic (and Romano-British ancestors) kept slaves. Should we be apologising?! Was slaves a late Iron age thing, something to do with slave trading with the Roman empire.
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Epona
Nov 5, 2008 10:22:27 GMT -1
Post by Blackbird on Nov 5, 2008 10:22:27 GMT -1
Hard to say, given that our written evidence starts with that lot. I'd be surprised if slavery suddenly appeared though. I'd expect that slaves would be traded between various tribes before the Romans, and I can imagine that people, as much as livestock, would be the object of raids.
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Epona
Nov 15, 2008 20:36:59 GMT -1
Post by marcodubnos on Nov 15, 2008 20:36:59 GMT -1
Epona has been a presence in my life for a long time now. She is my guide and guardian as well as a beloved friend. Is she the same as Rhiannon? I don't think so but I'm not sure. She's not answering me on that one I once asked Her what Her relationship was with Rhiannon. She said: "Cordial". That was it :-)
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Epona
Oct 18, 2010 16:54:50 GMT -1
Post by dreamguardian on Oct 18, 2010 16:54:50 GMT -1
I've bumped this particular thread both for itself & to promote Di Deaeqve Provinciae Britanniae sub-forum in general ( caerfeddwyd.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=romanobrits). It's become a particularly personal inner urge to enquire more as I've been spiritually fragile lately. Thanks I hope it's relevant to others & brython in general too at this time of the year.
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Epona
Oct 18, 2010 20:22:43 GMT -1
Post by potia on Oct 18, 2010 20:22:43 GMT -1
Epona has been a presence in my life for a long time now. She is my guide and guardian as well as a beloved friend. Is she the same as Rhiannon? I don't think so but I'm not sure. She's not answering me on that one I once asked Her what Her relationship was with Rhiannon. She said: "Cordial". That was it :-) Interestingly as time has gone on I have come to feel more and more that the being I know as Epona will also happily answer to the name Rigantona (and other personal names). I haven't a clue if the being that responds to these names in Britian is the same that answers to the name Epona in mainland Europe. I'm not even sure if that really matters for me as where ever I am sure she will respond to me in some way if she can.
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Epona
Oct 19, 2010 9:30:17 GMT -1
Post by Heron on Oct 19, 2010 9:30:17 GMT -1
I think so too.
In fact I've taken to placing roses on my garden shrine to Rigantona on the basis of this being the practice with shrines to Epona (see Apuleius : The Golden Ass)
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Epona
Oct 19, 2010 12:15:06 GMT -1
Post by Lee on Oct 19, 2010 12:15:06 GMT -1
Roses eh? i have had a gut instinct to do the same and it isnt something i would normally think of using as i am not really that into roses.
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Epona
Oct 20, 2010 1:16:19 GMT -1
Post by Rion on Oct 20, 2010 1:16:19 GMT -1
Interestingly as time has gone on I have come to feel more and more that the being I know as Epona will also happily answer to the name Rigantona (and other personal names). I haven't a clue if the being that responds to these names in Britian is the same that answers to the name Epona in mainland Europe. I'm not even sure if that really matters for me as where ever I am sure she will respond to me in some way if she can. Ditto.
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