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Post by potia on Oct 28, 2008 10:46:31 GMT -1
I've avoided learning about this deity for a while now because of the attitude in some circles of the Mabon as this baby boy figure who never grows older linked to the winter solstice and this has always irritated me.
Recently I have been doing some reading and find that Maponus was linked with Apollo and may well been very popular in the Dumfries and Galloway area of Scotland.
I know someone further North who has been working with Angus who feels very strongly that the Angus Og she works with is not the same as the Irish one - a bit like my feeling of the Cailleach I work with. I've read elsewhere that the name Angus means the unique or only one and may come from Pictish. This would give a meaning to his name of the unique or only youth which seems to me to be a likely title for a Divine Son.
Would it be reasonable to assume that the incoming Gaels like the Romans before them may have given names to the Gods already in Scotland that seemed to fit their understanding of their own gods?
If that is the case would it seem reasonable that the Angus Og of Scotland could previously have been known as Maponus or Mabon?
My gut tells me this is more than possible but I'd appreciate others thoughts on this.
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Post by littleraven on Oct 29, 2008 23:57:13 GMT -1
Would it be reasonable to assume that the incoming Gaels like the Romans before them may have given names to the Gods already in Scotland that seemed to fit their understanding of their own gods? If that is the case would it seem reasonable that the Angus Og of Scotland could previously have been known as Maponus or Mabon? My gut tells me this is more than possible but I'd appreciate others thoughts on this. I think it's perfectly plausible.
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Post by megli on Oct 30, 2008 0:42:00 GMT -1
Why ever do you think that ? ....
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Post by megli on Oct 30, 2008 9:16:45 GMT -1
I've avoided learning about this deity for a while now because of the attitude in some circles of the Mabon as this baby boy figure who never grows older linked to the winter solstice and this has always irritated me. Recently I have been doing some reading and find that Maponus was linked with Apollo and may well been very popular in the Dumfries and Galloway area of Scotland. I know someone further North who has been working with Angus who feels very strongly that the Angus Og she works with is not the same as the Irish one - a bit like my feeling of the Cailleach I work with. I've read elsewhere that the name Angus means the unique or only one and may come from Pictish. This would give a meaning to his name of the unique or only youth which seems to me to be a likely title for a Divine Son. Would it be reasonable to assume that the incoming Gaels like the Romans before them may have given names to the Gods already in Scotland that seemed to fit their understanding of their own gods? If that is the case would it seem reasonable that the Angus Og of Scotland could previously have been known as Maponus or Mabon? My gut tells me this is more than possible but I'd appreciate others thoughts on this. Hi Potia - my 2p worth: Angus Og doesn't come from pictish, though the Picts had the same name (in the form Oingust) because it's attested in Pictish king lists. Both Angus (= Old Irish Oengus) and Pictish Oingust come from Celtic *Oinogustos, 'Single strength, Unique Vigour'. If there was a Welsh equivalent, it would have been *Unwst, but this is not attested. (Which I why I put 'Unwst Swan-mantle' in among the otherworldly hosts in my fake Fifth Branch of the Mabinogi). The forms Angus, Aonghus, Oengus etc are all distinctly Irish, and the mythological character is brought from Ireland to Scotland with the migration of the Gaels from around 500AD. It's important to realise that Ireland and Gaelic Scotland were essentially one cultural region until the 17th century, with a free exchange of poets and litterateurs, and the languages (Irish and Scottish Gaelic) are even now very close. Angus is embedded in the context of the (originally Irish) tales about Finn mac Cool which were immensely popular in both Scotland and Ireland. So whilst your friend may well feel they are different, in terms of the historical diffusion of the material, Scottish Angus is an originally Irish literary character, probably descended from an original Irish god, called in primitive Irish *Oinogustos Yowenkos (= Oengus Oc!!), brought to Scotland as a consequence of the Irish migration thither. The Picts might have had a native deity Oingust, but the name in the king lists could just as easily be a Pictish borrowing from the Irish settlers. (Other Pictish kings are called Uurgust, which is Irish Fergus). We can't tell. Maponos, as you say, is absolutely attested as a deity from souther scotland (British-speaking area): Irish Oengus Oc, 'Young One, Singular Vigour' might well have been functionally equivalent to Maponos, 'Divine Son'. Many people - Irish scholars as well as pagans - have thought them to be akin.
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Post by potia on Oct 30, 2008 18:20:38 GMT -1
Thanks for this Megli.
To me it sounds as if it is still possible that if Maponus also had a following in Pictish territory (and we simply have no idea about that) incoming Gaels might have seen the resemblance and started using their familiar name to refer to Maponus. However, I accept that it's a very slender thread of ifs and maybes.
Here's a more experience based question. Do folk think it is possible for ancient deities such as Maponus to use more recent titles such as Angus as a way of making initial contact with modern Brythons?
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Post by megli on Oct 31, 2008 10:29:50 GMT -1
Well, as I say, Angus is clearly an ancient Irish deity name too - or rather the Old Irish form of an older deity name. (This is a good point: there is no such thing as the 'goddess' Rhiannon, or 'the god' Gofannon, or the 'god' the Dagda. They are medieval literary chartacters whose names are the descendants of actual ancient Celtic theonyms Rigantona, Gobannonos and Dagodeiwos.)
Maponos might have had a following in Pictish territory. All the inscriptions we have to him are from lower down in 'Brtish' territory, but who knows?
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Post by potia on Oct 31, 2008 15:18:31 GMT -1
Been doing some re-reading of Scottish tales in Mackenzie's Scottish Wonder Tales from Myth and legend (first published 1917). There's an aspect that given the current discussion I find particularly interesting about Angus and his parentage.
This Irish myths are quite clear about Angus's parents being the Dagda and Boand, in the Scottish version given in this book Angus is the "fairest and dearest son" of Queen Beira also known as the Cailleach. In these stories he is destined to be King of summer with Bride as his Queen, taking over from Beira who is the Queen of winter.
Could this be all that remains of an older myth in Scotland of a God of the summer, child of a Mother goddess of the land? Maponus perhaps?
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Post by megli on Oct 31, 2008 15:37:31 GMT -1
There's a distinction here between later folktale and the original literary tradition. Make absolutely sure where this info comes from: remember this is Fiona MacLeod/William sharpe territory, and he (as were other celtic twilight writers) were horribly prone to simply making it up. (Read George russell's mystical writings from the same period for innumerable examples!) The Cailleach is of course also an Irish figure originally. I know the story you mean well (it is quite beautiful) but I'd like to know whether it goes back to a genuine gaelic-speaking oral source or is ultimately traceable only to Mackenzie depending on eg MacLeod. (Elsewhere (s)he has Bride married to Manannan who acts as a kind of male Persephone, going off to Iceland for a period every years, as far as I recall.)
So - beware building bit arguments like 'older myths in Scotland of a god of the summer' on these kind of sources. I don't discount the possibility that it may be a genuine folktale (and even if it is it is a VAST leap to go from 'late Scottish folktale' to 'pre-Christian Scottish myth') but I would be very, very, very surprised.
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Post by potia on Oct 31, 2008 20:50:36 GMT -1
Fair point Megli. Haven't a clue how I would go about finding out if the original source is from the oral tradition. He doesn't exactly give sources in the book.
It's fun musing though and even better getting such good quality feedback on my ideas and musings. I'll be careful not to get carried away though.
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Post by Blackbird on Nov 5, 2008 10:13:48 GMT -1
As to whether a different being might start answering to a name - yes, I'm sure that happens. As all the names are titles, it is plausible to me that a being who feels the attributes of that title are a fit, would answer to the name. But equally, I'm sure that a being who happened to be interested in you would answer to any name if it suited them.
Of course, we're not dealing with anything scientifically provable. Dealing with the gods is always a minefield, and it has to be up to you how many pinches of salt you want to take with the things they tell you, and how much faith you wish to put in your own impressions.
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Post by potia on Sept 18, 2009 13:11:01 GMT -1
Recently I've been thinking about Maponos again and possible attributes. I find the information on the link between Apollo and Maponos a bit confusing because I can't make out if Apollo would have been thought of as a solar deity at the time the Romans were in Britian. The sometimes dubious Wikipedia states: "In Hellenistic times, especially during the third century BCE, as Apollo Helios he became identified among Greeks with Helios, god of the sun, and his sister Artemis similarly equated with Selene, goddess of the moon.[1] In Latin texts, however, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with Sol among the Augustan poets of the first century, not even in the conjurations of Aeneas and Latinus in Aeneid XII (161–215).[2] Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the third century CE." at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApolloIf I'm reading this correctly then at the time the Roman were in Britian they were not generally thinking of Apollo as a solar god but the Greeks were. Is that correct? I know Apollo was known as a healer, as a patron of music and as an oracular deity and this leads me to believe these were the main attributes of Maponus but I'd like to get a better idea of the solar possibilities. Any ideas?
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Post by megli on Sept 19, 2009 21:05:18 GMT -1
I think you're right, yes.
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Post by potia on Sept 20, 2009 9:26:11 GMT -1
Thanks Megli. Nice to get a second opinion on this - especially yours
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Post by megli on Sept 20, 2009 9:28:23 GMT -1
I think 'pretty young man playing a musical instrument, vaguely associated with light' is the key here.
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Post by potia on Sept 20, 2009 16:22:18 GMT -1
I think 'pretty young man playing a musical instrument, vaguely associated with light' is the key here. Do you think the healing side of things would have been a factor too?
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Post by megli on Sept 20, 2009 16:25:04 GMT -1
I don't think we can know that---yay or nay---from any surviving evidence, so let your UPG run wild, I would
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Post by potia on Sept 20, 2009 16:45:04 GMT -1
I don't think we can know that---yay or nay---from any surviving evidence, so let your UPG run wild, I would I just feel it had to be a bit more than the pretty young man with an instrument and vague links to light to link the two deities.
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Post by potia on Jul 19, 2010 16:32:29 GMT -1
Maponus has been coming to the forefront of my mind again. I've been thinking of trying to set up a regular practice of some sort devoted to him but not sure what or when. Anyone else do anything regular devoted to Maponus? Any thoughts/opinions on possibilities? Further opinions on the previous posts would also still be welcome
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Post by deiniol on Jul 19, 2010 16:39:12 GMT -1
Well, you're aware of my contention that Maponos is another name for the sun-god I generally refer to as Grannos, so I can offer my dawn rituals for your consideration again.
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