Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2009 13:58:13 GMT -1
LittleRaven wrote: "Again, there are things in it that originate in obscure mid 1990s esoterica, stuff that by design has no earlier source. Other stuff from the 1970s when 'Druids' didn't really know where their sources originated."
I would contend that at least a few of those sources were the work of Hargrave and his Kindred of the Kibbo Kift ceremonial structures, which were informed by and informing of Westlake's Order of Woodcraft Chivalry which, in turn, was highly influenced by Seton's Woodcraft movement. All three of these organizations had inner circles that were decidedly Pagan in their ritual formats, and highly derivative of Native American ideology (in the case of Seton), African Bwiti ideology (in the case of Hargrave), with a smattering of everything from CM/Hermeticist/Greek ideas and even some Hindu material tossed in. I think that looking at Hargrave's work with the Bwiti Nganga initiation ceremony would be highly informative for anyone thinking that the Order of the Pendragon material was unique in any way.
My disclaimer for this is that what these fellows were doing at this time was born out of an ethnocentric perspective that placed people of European ancestry at the center of the universe and anything that any other culture came up with was fair game for appropriation. My modern polytheistic perspective finds it not only disrespectful to continue to perpetrate what seems like it was likely an innocent appropriation of other cultural constructs, but downright dishonest to do so. I find the Order of the Pendragon stuff interesting, but deeply flawed in that it doesn't give credit where credit is due.
In this same vein of thought, Gerald Gardner's New Forest Wiccan coven where he claims to have derived the foundation of modern Wicca was most certainly an Order of Woodcraft Chivalry group. The material that went into creating the central ideology for both Wicca and OBOD's Druidry borrows heavily from the OWC, the Kindred of the Kibbo Kift and Woodcraft.
References:
"The Red God: Woodcraft and the Origins of Wicca" by Gordon Cooper and John Michael Greer, published in the summer 1998 issue of Gnosis magazine, pgs. 51-58.
"The Red Lodge" Ernest Thompson Seton 1912
"Confession" John Hargrave pg. 315
"The Great War Brings it Home" John Hargrave
"The Great Initiation Ceremony of the Ndembo" John Hargrave ---incidentally, in this particular work, we find an early representation of an African version of the triple death motif--in this case associated with a Bwiti Iboga ritual.
On another note,
Ellen Evert Hopman is a friend of mine, and I can assure you that she has no interest in resurrecting the Order of the Pendragon material--just in case, I have sent her a message to confirm this and I will report back here, if you are interested, with her response.
I would also like to say that this is a fantastic thread! I thank you Stefan, for recommending the Pendragon material here, I have enjoyed it quite alot, even considering the rest of my post ;-) I am also thankful that you recommended Grigsby's "Warriors of the Wasteland", also a great read! I think that he makes some unfounded conclusions and seems to be pushing his own agenda, but, nonetheless, a well done work, taken in its proper context. I am in the process of reading his "Beowulf and Grendel" book--finding a similar agenda in that work and wishing that he drew from a few more academic sources, but interesting nonetheless ;-)
We are living in an interesting point in history as it pertains to the resurrection of pre-Christian spiritual ideology, the ability to have conversations of this type on forums such as this one is groundbreaking and exciting. I just wanted to express my gratitude for a place such as this one. Now, back to lurking ;-)
Have a wonderful day!!
Kenneth
I would contend that at least a few of those sources were the work of Hargrave and his Kindred of the Kibbo Kift ceremonial structures, which were informed by and informing of Westlake's Order of Woodcraft Chivalry which, in turn, was highly influenced by Seton's Woodcraft movement. All three of these organizations had inner circles that were decidedly Pagan in their ritual formats, and highly derivative of Native American ideology (in the case of Seton), African Bwiti ideology (in the case of Hargrave), with a smattering of everything from CM/Hermeticist/Greek ideas and even some Hindu material tossed in. I think that looking at Hargrave's work with the Bwiti Nganga initiation ceremony would be highly informative for anyone thinking that the Order of the Pendragon material was unique in any way.
My disclaimer for this is that what these fellows were doing at this time was born out of an ethnocentric perspective that placed people of European ancestry at the center of the universe and anything that any other culture came up with was fair game for appropriation. My modern polytheistic perspective finds it not only disrespectful to continue to perpetrate what seems like it was likely an innocent appropriation of other cultural constructs, but downright dishonest to do so. I find the Order of the Pendragon stuff interesting, but deeply flawed in that it doesn't give credit where credit is due.
In this same vein of thought, Gerald Gardner's New Forest Wiccan coven where he claims to have derived the foundation of modern Wicca was most certainly an Order of Woodcraft Chivalry group. The material that went into creating the central ideology for both Wicca and OBOD's Druidry borrows heavily from the OWC, the Kindred of the Kibbo Kift and Woodcraft.
References:
"The Red God: Woodcraft and the Origins of Wicca" by Gordon Cooper and John Michael Greer, published in the summer 1998 issue of Gnosis magazine, pgs. 51-58.
"The Red Lodge" Ernest Thompson Seton 1912
"Confession" John Hargrave pg. 315
"The Great War Brings it Home" John Hargrave
"The Great Initiation Ceremony of the Ndembo" John Hargrave ---incidentally, in this particular work, we find an early representation of an African version of the triple death motif--in this case associated with a Bwiti Iboga ritual.
On another note,
Ellen Evert Hopman is a friend of mine, and I can assure you that she has no interest in resurrecting the Order of the Pendragon material--just in case, I have sent her a message to confirm this and I will report back here, if you are interested, with her response.
I would also like to say that this is a fantastic thread! I thank you Stefan, for recommending the Pendragon material here, I have enjoyed it quite alot, even considering the rest of my post ;-) I am also thankful that you recommended Grigsby's "Warriors of the Wasteland", also a great read! I think that he makes some unfounded conclusions and seems to be pushing his own agenda, but, nonetheless, a well done work, taken in its proper context. I am in the process of reading his "Beowulf and Grendel" book--finding a similar agenda in that work and wishing that he drew from a few more academic sources, but interesting nonetheless ;-)
We are living in an interesting point in history as it pertains to the resurrection of pre-Christian spiritual ideology, the ability to have conversations of this type on forums such as this one is groundbreaking and exciting. I just wanted to express my gratitude for a place such as this one. Now, back to lurking ;-)
Have a wonderful day!!
Kenneth