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Post by alfvin on Nov 26, 2008 13:29:22 GMT -1
This kind of came to me while answering another question. We have been talked into a recession mostly by the media, but there is also the greed on the banks and corrupt and incompetent governments in the equasion.
What can we do as spiritual people of varying degrees and beliefs to stop ourselves being victims of the state, for want of a better definition.
As a Norse heathen, we don't beg or grovel to our gods, as I'm sure the Brythonic heathens/pagans here don't either.
Prayer isn't a thing we really do either.
Should we be making sacrifices to petition the gods to bring about the downfall of The British goverment? Perhaps some kind of revolution, at the risk of sounding like a communist which I certainly am not.
What should we be doing?
Alfvin
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Post by maglowyllt on Nov 26, 2008 15:02:50 GMT -1
Greeting Comrade, Honour to Labour! Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was actually thinking about this myself the other day although the Credit Crunch has caused much less damage where I live (for the moment at least). I am not sure how to go about such a ritual. I think it would be better to ask 'help' in avoiding the credit crunch rather than trying to bring the wrath of the divine upon the government or bankers or whoever else is involved.
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Post by Craig on Nov 26, 2008 18:51:19 GMT -1
Hi Alfvin, Should we be making sacrifices to petition the gods to bring about the downfall of The British goverment? Perhaps some kind of revolution, at the risk of sounding like a communist which I certainly am not. What should we be doing? Nice to see I'm not the only comrade here A question you may wish to consider in challenge to yours is this: If we campaigned and actually brought down the 'New' Labour government what would we get in its place? In Trap One we have Cameron and his merry band of chinless, Eton-educated millionaires. Men whose only solid record of achievement is saying 'yah boo!' and 'we thought of that first!' to absolutely everything Gordon's Highlanders have proposed. Men who, until a few weeks ago, were in favour of utterly deregulating the mortgage market... hmmm. In Trap Two are Nick Clegg's limp democrats. They have a decent economist in Vince Cable, but the rest of their front bench are inexperienced half-wits like 'Limpet Biscuit' [my very own M.P. for my sins]. Unlike the tories they actually have policies, but they are often contradictory and so naieve as to make an old red cynic like me weep. Somehow, methinks, it is a case of 'better the devil we know'.
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Post by Adam on Nov 27, 2008 23:43:35 GMT -1
Somehow, methinks, it is a case of 'better the devil we know'. Ah, the devil... problem is, 'the devil we know' is frog marching us inexorably towards a totalitarian police state... the so called labour party we now know bears the same relationship to the original socialist movement that the modern druids do to the original... none. At least the Liberal Democrats have an ideological stance that can inform policy, well documented and structured... give them a couple of terms and you might just have a party capable of coherence. I probably err on the side of libertarian socialism politically, but I weep as I see the excess and abuse of law commited by this government, the manifest abuse of power and manipulative disinformation. I weep because it passes either unnoticed or simply uncommented by the people of this country as a whole, and when it is raised, there is no apparent power to challenge it.
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Post by Tegernacus on Nov 28, 2008 6:57:58 GMT -1
The way to help out with the credit crunch isn't "magical", it's practical: If you've got old stuff that is in good condition, give it away on freecycle. If your're off to the supermarket, offer to take the old couple down the road too. Remember that finance, like nature, is circular. If you stop buying "stuff", then the factory that makes "stuff" lays people off because no-one is buying it. I personally don't care about the Parties, because we (and Scotland - and by default, England) will be independent soon
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Post by Craig on Nov 28, 2008 7:19:36 GMT -1
Hi Teggie, I love practical solutions so forgive this old cycnic... If you've got old stuff that is in good condition, give it away on freecycle. Nope, cart it all down to a car boot sale and make some lollie from it. ;D If you're off to the supermarket, offer to take the old couple down the road too. I understand that kidnapping is actually an offence and making them carry your shopping only compounds it. Anyhoo wouldn't it be better to leave the car at home, put on your backpack and yomp it? Remember that finance, like nature, is circular. If you stop buying 'stuff', then the factory that makes "stuff" lays people off because no-one is buying it. Do I feel guilty, not a bit I'm afraid and I work for an automotive supplier where every week I expect the redundancy cheque. Buying all this stuff, on tick mind, is what got me, you and the old couple down the road into this mess. I personally don't care about the Parties, because we (and Scotland - and by default, England) will be independent soon Personally, as a Welshman, I intend to keep sponging off the English Treasury until it goes bust and then go for autonomous European region status and wait for the big handouts to roll in. After all what is the EU for? ;D With no oil I expect you scots are going to make a living from fish? - oops, all gone, tourists? - oops, global warming has made scotland too wet and midgy, er... whiskey? - oops, too expensive in these straightened times. Tell me what will Scotland export other than feckless youths as mercenary soldiers? We should really set up a politics board for all this good stuff
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Post by Craig on Nov 28, 2008 7:44:40 GMT -1
Hi Adam Ah, the devil... problem is, 'the devil we know' is frog marching us inexorably towards a totalitarian police state... the so called labour party we now know bears the same relationship to the original socialist movement that the modern druids do to the original... none. Hey LR, the Forum's Libertarian Hippy Filter has burnt out again! I'm pretty much of the opinion that the Tories would have done no different if they had been in Labour's shoes over the last decade. After all they spent seventeen years destroying employment rights and deregulating every financial and corporate interest, as well as denationalising several key industries and almost denationalising the NHS. As the self-styled 'Law and Order' party I'm sure they wouldn't have missed a trick in creating a de facto police state. At least the Liberal Democrats have an ideological stance that can inform policy, well documented and structured... give them a couple of terms and you might just have a party capable of coherence. Give this present Liberal Party front bench a single term and I think we would be bankrupt and living on UN food aid. As we have seen from the last few months, experience counts, and the Liberals have absolutely none. Also I have direct experience of Liberal representation here in sunny Montgomeryshire, country home of the Cheeky Girls, and I can tell you it is not impressive. I probably err on the side of libertarian socialism politically, but I weep as I see the excess and abuse of law committed by this government, the manifest abuse of power and manipulative disinformation. I weep because it passes either unnoticed or simply uncommented by the people of this country as a whole, and when it is raised, there is no apparent power to challenge it. To abuse a law you would have to use it for something you didn't originally intend. This government created laws that it knew it could use for evil, and it has, frequently. In fact far more frequently than our celebrity-obsessed 'free' press has chosen to highlight. If you don't already know of it, take a tour of www.monbiot.com. It is where Grauniad Columnist George Monbiot keeps all his articals and essays - eye-opening stuff I can tell you. I like him becuase he lists all his sources for his conclusions and you can check them out. What I want to know is where is this mediterranean climate Al Gore and Gordon Brown promised us with the onset of Global Warming? B*st*rds!
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Post by Adam on Nov 28, 2008 10:09:23 GMT -1
Hey LR, the Forum's Libertarian Hippy Filter has burnt out again! Hey... I got here didn't I? ;D I'm pretty much of the opinion that the Tories would have done no different if they had been in Labour's shoes over the last decade. After all they spent seventeen years destroying employment rights and deregulating every financial and corporate interest, as well as denationalising several key industries and almost denationalising the NHS. As the self-styled 'Law and Order' party I'm sure they wouldn't have missed a trick in creating a de facto police state. While that sounds a bit like reassuring yourself that, while having the crap beaten out of you by Bob, you can feel secure in the knowledge that Bill would have made just as much of a mess of you, I absolutely agree... but they stood there and told us in advance that is what they were going to do... it was in their farking manifesto... that's an enemy it is a damn site easier to second guess. As far as I can see, Labour's policies have very little in common with their ideological origins and have further contributed to wealth and health inequality throughout the country. They certainly have brought into force more legislation every year than every other government in history, successfully making more of their own citizens criminals than ever before... There is something far more insidious and therefore dangerous in this evil than the one that went before Give this present Liberal Party front bench a single term and I think we would be bankrupt and living on UN food aid. As we have seen from the last few months, experience counts, and the Liberals have absolutely none. Also I have direct experience of Liberal representation here in sunny Montgomeryshire, country home of the Cheeky Girls, and I can tell you it is not impressive. Fair comment... there was a day... sigh. I probably err on the side of libertarian socialism politically, but I weep as I see the excess and abuse of law committed by this government, the manifest abuse of power and manipulative disinformation. I weep because it passes either unnoticed or simply uncommented by the people of this country as a whole, and when it is raised, there is no apparent power to challenge it. To abuse a law you would have to use it for something you didn't originally intend. This government created laws that it knew it could use for evil, and it has, frequently. In fact far more frequently than our celebrity-obsessed 'free' press has chosen to highlight. I should have written "I see the excess and abuse of Law". I intended to refer to the principle and process of Law rather than individual laws... again we witness a systematic dismantling of any concept of the Rule of Law under which no one can be held above the Law, and we are witness to a systematic dismantling of the protections that have been in place to prevent such abuse of Law (now demonstrably weak, with hindsight, but none the less once present and therefore indicative of an intent to protect) If you don't already know of it, take a tour of www.monbiot.com. It is where Grauniad Columnist George Monbiot keeps all his articals and essays - eye-opening stuff I can tell you. I like him becuase he lists all his sources for his conclusions and you can check them out. I didn't and I will with pleasure, thank you What I want to know is where is this mediterranean climate Al Gore and Gordon Brown promised us with the onset of Global Warming? B*st*rds! You gullible fool!! ;D
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Post by Adam on Nov 28, 2008 10:22:12 GMT -1
The way to help out with the credit crunch isn't "magical", it's practical: If you've got old stuff that is in good condition, give it away on freecycle. If your're off to the supermarket, offer to take the old couple down the road too. Remember that finance, like nature, is circular. If you stop buying "stuff", then the factory that makes "stuff" lays people off because no-one is buying it. I personally don't care about the Parties, because we (and Scotland - and by default, England) will be independent soon We got a lot of relearning to do... I've been watching Survivors (anyone remember that first time round in the 70's?) and there are elements of that... we have grown soft and fat as a generation... easy credit... paying for stuff on cards our parents did without until they had saved the cash. I find it interesting watching my Grandmother-in-law in times of financial strappedness, her behaviour is quite different to the younger folk I see... no complaints, just switches into using less stuff... But as Craig pointed out, the factory was only producing stuff and creating jobs out of the debt that the consumers created in order to consume... the whole thinking, top down, is fundamentally flawed and independence or no, if the thinking continues we will continue to see wilder and more chaotic economic behaviour... build houses in the sand and we all know what happens
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Post by Lee on Nov 28, 2008 10:47:50 GMT -1
credit crunch? what credit crunch?
i have no credit cards, no overdraft, i live within my means and dont have a mortgage.
the people in the shit most are those who took out huge mortgages to bolster a bloated housaing market and who decided to spend what they didnt and wouldnt have.
as to those banks all going tits up and the city of london weeping:
Schadenfreude: ( ) is a German word meaning 'pleasure from misfortune'. It has been borrowed by the English language and is sometimes also used as a loanword by other languages.
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Post by jez on Nov 28, 2008 10:55:10 GMT -1
credit crunch? what credit crunch? i have no credit cards, no overdraft, i live within my means and dont have a mortgage. the people in the shit most are those who took out huge mortgages to bolster a bloated housaing market and who decided to spend what they didnt and wouldnt have. as to those banks all going tits up and the city of london weeping: Schadenfreude: ( ) is a German word meaning 'pleasure from misfortune'. It has been borrowed by the English language and is sometimes also used as a loanword by other languages. And those of us who were relying on selling our house to fund our retirement, because the stress of our job has made us unemployable in that profession through ill-health but we are too old for anyone to give us a different one. -- Jez
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Post by clare on Nov 28, 2008 11:30:32 GMT -1
I wonder if this debate could be taken over to the 'liminal spaces' thread?
I live in social housing (and am therefore universally hated!) have a minimal amount of debt and the credit crunch is excellenty helpful because, on my ultra-low income, stuff has become affordable. As far as the politics go, though it absolutely sticks in my craw there's no alternative for me other than Labour. I rely on the unheard but powerful Old Labour MP's who prevent single mothers from deportation/being made into pies, who give a minor hoot about the disabled, and so on. Our society seems to have a memory of about a week, and it's the Free Market that, while giving us all washing machines, also led us into a world where no one is able to bring up their own children, and then we wonder where all these feral kids who will never be able to hold down a job come from. Bah humbug.
Anyhoo. If anyone can remember back to the dim and distant early 90's when things were very seriously tough for the most vulnerable, that's when the convoy began, people went properly liminal and some never came back! I'd argue that the protest/convoy/traveler lifestyle intimately informed Paganism and there's a lot to be relearned from that:
1/ Community - alongside a lot of bad stuff there was a great deal of unquestioning hospitality.
2/ How threatening any counter-culture is.
Can't get hold of tarps for anything now, everyone's living in £3k yurts! And Teg, I like your 'think global, act local' response.
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Post by Tegernacus on Nov 28, 2008 13:06:13 GMT -1
gah no! It's the convoy that's responsible for "I'm Gandalf.. erm.. Arthur, get off me Stones" and everyone being a druid (when last week they were American Indians. And the week before Indian Indians). Terrible terrible idea. All those old buses (I used to live in one) pumping out diesel? As an ex-crusty, I'm never going back to that. Ever.
Saying that, there were good points. A lot of the pedal-power, windmills etc started to gain acceptance in that environment, and we could seriously look into them now. I for one wouldn't mind a windmill in my garden/roof if it meant that I wouldn't have to pay for electricity again.
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Post by clare on Nov 28, 2008 16:39:05 GMT -1
There *was* a lot of bad stuff, it's true. Too much alcohol and drugs and fighting and boring on for England. And, as you say, lots of good stuff too. When care in the community ie stopping inpatient mental health for all but the most ill, happened many of the ex service users who didn't go to prison or hang themselves ended up on the convoy and other dark and loud places where they found their place in a way that ordinary society didn't offer.
A lot of liminal people buggered off to Ireland. And some helped start the Druish camps that we so love. They could light fires.
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Post by Craig on Nov 29, 2008 6:05:45 GMT -1
Care in the Community. Aside for our overseas and younger readers: that was where Maggie Thatcher shut down all but a handful of mental institutions in the mistaken belief that GP's and the 'community' would step up to care for the mentally ill.
If you actually count the increase in the number of rough sleepers and the prison population since then you get a very disturbing correlation...
As for the Travellers pah! I got a bash on the conk from one of Her Majesty's Constabulary at the Beanfield for trying to help the bloody Travellers. Did they say thanks - not one. One even spat on me in the cells in Winchester Police Station because I was not 'one of them'.
Certainly disabused my romantic notions I can tell you.
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Post by chris on Nov 29, 2008 7:14:30 GMT -1
I was very definitely a "victim" of it back in the 90s. I was a high-flying self employed consultant earning dosh that would probably be in 6 figures per annum in today's money.
Interest rates went up and up on virtually an hourly basis, the mortgage trebled, and, although clients still wanted work they didn't want to pay for it. Or at least not until later - much later. Ones who used to pay their bills regularly within a fortnight or four weeks after receiving invoice started taking ........ 18 months.
Eventually the savings ran out.
I had to give back the house to the bank, and load the kids into the back of the car with no real idea where we were going to go. My family disowned me as a failure, my husband's family did the same.
Eventually, following my heart for probably the first time in my life I drove into Brecon, bought pasties for the kids and a local paper, and found a small cottage to rent.
When all else fails, try Wales.
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Post by arth_frown on Nov 29, 2008 9:47:51 GMT -1
When all else fails, try Wales. Nearly did 6 years ago, in your neck of the woods. We were looking at a 9 acre small holding and a run down bungalow.
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Post by Tegernacus on Nov 29, 2008 11:50:35 GMT -1
hmmm.... that's why people in Wales can't afford houses....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2008 12:20:33 GMT -1
Well, I've always believed you can tell a lot about a society in how it cares for its weakest members. Our politicians seem to be saying quite loudly 'if you haven't got any money-tough! We are slowly removing any help you may have had in the past.' The argument about public sector pensions is hilarious-' you have pensions that may allow you live at a reasonable standard in your old age, most other people don't because we got rid of final salary pension schemes. Our solution? Let's drag you down to everyone else's level so you can all suffer together!'. No thought for how we can improve pensions for everyone. Particularly galling when MPs can set their own pensions!
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