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Post by jez on Dec 9, 2008 12:46:36 GMT -1
Goodness, it would take me ages to evidence the knowledge/details that have filterd through to eventually stick in my head. At work at moment, so unable to do so. One of the things about this group, this forum, is that unsubstantiated statements are going to be challenged. If you have UPG on this, rather than evidence, fine - but say so. Irish, Danish, anywhere that bogs catch people out. Just google female bog bodies. Not where I come from. Maybe that is what you get in modern druidry, since nothing survives to tell us what they did do. But there's plenty of evidence for what folk-practices were common, because they are forbidden in law upon law, penance after penance as the population keeps on doing them, through the centuries. There isn't even evidence of that - since you have no record of what was done, you could have had regional, personal or family practices, and there would be no way of telling. And I don't even understand what you mean by this. Well, I have done a quick search around, and I can find no references to any source material about this, so, yes, you need to explain it. Again, what exactly do you mean by this? Surely even a benefit in this life would be enough of an incentive if you thought your gods would be impressed by your actions. There's no reason to assume from the simple act of sacrifice that the soul of the deceased animal or human survived. The act of destruction could be the whole point, as when a beautiful piece of jewellery or weaponry was destroyed. See above. If you don't have evidence, then you cannot get from one part of this to the next. There are lots of equally valid - and equally unevidenced - explanations, including the one which simply says, look, I can kill for you, what will you do for me? -- Jez
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Post by Adam on Dec 9, 2008 14:05:17 GMT -1
The personal opinions I have been hearing here seem to reinforce to me the anarchistic state of modern paganism, i.e. it can mean anything the individual wants it to and all seem related to modern day living. That was not the case in ancient times. Today there is little or no religious understanding of sacrifice related to wisdom teachings, or they are just simply ignored, so interpretations are as various as the number of people interested in the subject. ANARCHY! Just to quotre from the front page I for one, make no apology for trying to understand my budding paganism in relation to modern day living. I have to say, Stefan, that so far I am disappointed in what I see by way of your contribution (I don't know whether you or anyone else cares about that, but there you go)... in this thread I have seen debate and disagreement and discussion as to the meaning and nature of sacrifice... you know, that's what I understand by 'theology', belief as thrashed out by a group of people prepared to challenge and debate... on the other hand, you have made disparaging remarks regarding the same, while at the same time making grand claims regarding knowledge of wisdom teachings which you repeatedley refuse to substantiate or do so by offering the vaguest and thinnest of substance. I accept that your understanding is implicit rather than easily referenced, and developed over years of study, but you are in real danger of sounding like some self important pontif with access to a wisdom that the proles can only hope to bask in the glory of.
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Post by stefan on Dec 9, 2008 15:39:46 GMT -1
Hmmm, very defensive, why so? I thought people prided themselves here on straight talking, indeed thats what I like about this forum. No knives in the back, but speak it like you see it. I also don't understand your's and Jez's last replies? I seem to keep assuming with such wealth of knowledge here, (and no I'm not being sarcastic) that religious understanding/insight stands as strong as historical knowledge. We are spiritual people arn't we? Our understanding is just as comitted to spiritual enlightenment as being historical schlors, isn't it?
Ok, I believe modern Druidry/paganism is in a state of anarchy. Anarchy to me means, no rules, don't be told what to think or do, rebel against the establishment etc. This is how I feel the pagan movement stands today. No one thinks the same, wants the same, or is heading towards the same goal. We are all guilty, including myself. I also fully admit that these realisations have grown in intensity since the no Druids statement. So much of what I criticise I include myself in, rather than claim to hold any high ground.
Finally I have got quite used to being shot down in flames here, criticised and even accused of being dishonest. So my skin is growing very thick. Again it really has become water off a ducks back, I'm not remotely looking for sympathy. Those who know me here personally know that I am not an egotist, grandios, arrogant or up my own arsehole, even if I come across like that by email. In fact this weekend I handed over a whole load of power, (for want of a better word) which I'm sure many others would have clung onto for dear life. Believe it or not I am actually a kind bloke, compassionate and caring. I'm also passionate and hold strong opinions. I'm not a nutter Adam, but nether am I weak.
But I think I no more understand you, than you do me.
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Post by jez on Dec 9, 2008 16:07:24 GMT -1
But I think I no more understand you, than you do me. Well, you could try answering at least some of the points raised. But if you'd rather leave your posts to stand as unsubstantiated assertions, that's fine by me. I just thought some of it might have some basis beyond UPG. -- Jez
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Post by stefan on Dec 9, 2008 16:11:15 GMT -1
Lucan informs us of the types of sacrifice related to the 3 gods mentioned.
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Post by jez on Dec 9, 2008 16:21:19 GMT -1
Lucan informs us of the types of sacrifice related to the 3 gods mentioned. Lucan makes a general statement about the terrible celts You can see it here omacl.org/Pharsalia/book1.html(Around lines 450-500) This is a polemic from a man who had never been to any of the places he talks about. The whole poem is a political statement par excellence. -- The only detailed comment on that is then in the ninth century, which is a disputed mention which conflates the Irish deities with their Roman equivalents. Then there is a twelfth century mention, even more suspect. -- Is that the source you meant? -- Jez
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Post by stefan on Dec 9, 2008 16:23:04 GMT -1
Just a quickie to Jez before I close my computer down, I totally do not understand where your coming from re sacrifice. Religious theology is the back bone behind sacrifice, otherwise its just plain murder. I simply cannot understand why you picked that one apart? Perhaps it was to do with my interpretation? No evidence for it I guess?
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Post by jez on Dec 9, 2008 16:46:20 GMT -1
Frankly, the majority of your posts to this site have been unsubstantiated. This was yet another, and I thought, maybe, you could actually tell us where at least one of your ideas came from.
You see, that's what I expect, when I discuss theology on heathen sites. UPG, fine, but say so. Otherwise, put your sources down, not just expect other people to take what you say as 'gospel'.
--
Jez
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Post by jez on Dec 9, 2008 16:55:22 GMT -1
No evidence for it I guess? If you don't want me to reply to any more of your posts, then say so. That's fine. It doesn't bother me if you want your opinions to stay on the board unchallenged. Though please never do the same for me - I want to know if people think my posts or opinions are based on unfounded assumptions, so that I can check them out. -- Jez
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Post by Adam on Dec 9, 2008 20:26:25 GMT -1
Hmmm, very defensive, why so? I thought people prided themselves here on straight talking, indeed thats what I like about this forum. No knives in the back, but speak it like you see it. I also don't understand your's and Jez's last replies? I seem to keep assuming with such wealth of knowledge here, (and no I'm not being sarcastic) that religious understanding/insight stands as strong as historical knowledge. We are spiritual people arn't we? Our understanding is just as comitted to spiritual enlightenment as being historical schlors, isn't it? By what tests should this religious insight stand or fall in front of the community? This is the rub for me (and the difficulty I had with the whole hippy clappy "My Truth" bullshit too). Yes I value insight... I value the insight of others... but I only have three tests... one is does it feel right (not good enough, we are so easy to delude and so good at deluding ourselves)? Another is, is there a group consensus that we might be onto something here (though this requires something more of a framework) and the last is, how can this be interpreted in the light of what we know (possibly equivalent to the Catholics matching experience to scripture... don't know, I'm thinking on the fly here? There appears to be a presumption in your posts that your insight is of value, with no effort to suggest why other than to indicate that it is somehow obvious... it may well be... but a little more effort on your part might make it clearer why you think so Believe it or not I am actually a kind bloke, compassionate and caring. I'm also passionate and hold strong opinions. I'm not a nutter Adam, but nether am I weak. But I think I no more understand you, than you do me. I have no reason to assume you are a nutter or weak, nor to believe that you are anything but kind and decent... but you made a stand with your statements at Flag Fen and beyond, and in my opinion that almost demands more from you know than the celeb arch druids... by what tests, by what measure do I know you, Stefan?
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Post by aelfarh on Dec 10, 2008 14:25:08 GMT -1
Anything physical, money, swords, images of deity even if made in solid gold is an offering. Sacrifice in the pure sense means killing something living, be that animal or human. Effort is not sacrifice, in ancient times you would have been expected to pull your weight or be banished. Laziness would not have been accepted, it would have made you a social outcast. A statement like my comittment to this or that is my sacrifice would have been laughed at. With statements like this and the ones after, you seem to be so sure of what ancient people would have been thinking right? Do you have sound evidence that they have been laughed, or is it just what you think they probably had done? To dismiss an opinion you can't do it with just another opinion, but with factual basis. If not, it's just your opinion and nothing more.
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Post by stefan on Dec 10, 2008 15:03:19 GMT -1
Ok, I rolling my sleeves up here and want to stand my ground, I'm not going anywhere, I'm not running away, I have stuff to contribute to this community and if its not historical authenticity then its stil valid and vital, (I believe) to the future of what people want to create here.
I do have one big problem, nether of the computers I can access are anywhere near my personal book collection, so my half rememberd insight is impossible to resource before I comitt to pasting on this forum. Little of what I've said is made up by an over active imagination, but sourcing it is logistically impossible unless I write notes before comitting to email, which would be one hell of a ball ache.
If you find me a pain in the arse your just gonna have to deal with it, because I believe in this brave new adventure and I am also interested in pushing the boundaries, thinking outside the box, using my life experience to voice my opinions. I brave enough to do that because for many years I did obsessively do my history first. So you will find that even though you feel much of what I say is not sourced, nether is it the day dreams of someone who has just got off the boat.
You may continue to mawl me, but when you look in my eyes you will see no fear and may I add, no anger ether.
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Post by Lee on Dec 10, 2008 16:02:35 GMT -1
fire away Stefan, these discussions are fantastic, even if ones ideas come spiralling out of the air in a wreath of flames.
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Post by Adam on Dec 10, 2008 16:37:59 GMT -1
If you find me a pain in the arse your just gonna have to deal with it, because I believe in this brave new adventure and I am also interested in pushing the boundaries, thinking outside the box, using my life experience to voice my opinions. I brave enough to do that because for many years I did obsessively do my history first. So you will find that even though you feel much of what I say is not sourced, nether is it the day dreams of someone who has just got off the boat. You may continue to mawl me, but when you look in my eyes you will see no fear and may I add, no anger ether. I have no wish to mawl you (if you recall I spoke up in the defence of implicit as opposed to explicit understanding early on in your posting), but I do have a real problem with your statement... although not in the field of Druidry, I too (as have many here) studied spiritual matters for many years... my interest dates back to my early teens... I came to this site and forum on the understanding that any statement I made would be challenged with the burden of proof being upon me to support my claim with evidence unless I clearly label it as UPG... even then it can be open to challenge... I understand that to be a basic tenet through which Brython and its emerging spirituality be formed... you appear to be making a public declaration that this somehow does not apply to you, that the burden of evidence is reversed in your case and as such it is incumbent on any one who disagrees with your points to disprove them. If I am wrong regarding the basic tenet there, fine, I'll hold my hands up... but if I'm right, it is meaningless unless it applies to us all and sends us spiralling back into everything I came here to get away from.
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Post by stefan on Dec 10, 2008 16:53:37 GMT -1
Yes agreed, it is such a damn pain in the arse that I cannot access my resources, by the gods I could do with an omnipotent memory when I post on here. I too do not wish for things to get sloppy or of a fantasy nature.
I'm also very much a square peg in a round hole because I'm really searching the soul of pagan religion at the moment. No precise evidence, but loads of threads leading me to certain conclusions and then applying those conclusions to practice. But yes your right at the end of the day they are just my opinion. Big headed enough to perhaps believe they are logical ones, but obviously they appear to come from planet Mars to others.
I don't know what to do Adam? I'm searching for my religion to come alive. It is now just that for me, a religion. Perhaps I'm alone in that quest? Or that quest in itself can only be a solitary one and there is no one to walk it with me?
Are our differences so great? Or more to the point our desires? I want what our ancestors had Adam. A belief system that we all understood and followed together. Will that always remain elusive? Am I dreaming an impossible dream?
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Post by aelfarh on Dec 10, 2008 17:38:56 GMT -1
I'm also very much a square peg in a round hole because I'm really searching the soul of pagan religion at the moment. No precise evidence, but loads of threads leading me to certain conclusions and then applying those conclusions to practice. But yes your right at the end of the day they are just my opinion. Big headed enough to perhaps believe they are logical ones, but obviously they appear to come from planet Mars to others. I don't know what to do Adam? I'm searching for my religion to come alive. It is now just that for me, a religion. Perhaps I'm alone in that quest? Or that quest in itself can only be a solitary one and there is no one to walk it with me? Are our differences so great? Or more to the point our desires? I want what our ancestors had Adam. A belief system that we all understood and followed together. Will that always remain elusive? Am I dreaming an impossible dream? I don't think your opinions are worthless, or less valid or vital than anyones. I see no problem at all with that, and with your personal quest. I made a critic of your statements, since I understand, as Adam that in this forum you can't give an opinion as a truth and expect nobody challenge it. In your post you seem very confident in knowing what the ancient people would think, or would laught at, but give no solid evidence that it is the case. You are entitled to think so, but that doesn't make it so. On the other hand, an speaking strictly for myself, I don't want to live the same lives than the old people did, I see no problem in adapt our religious point of views to the present day. If the old ones sacrifice humans, does that mean that we need to do it also? Are the old ways perfect? And really, how much do we know about the old cosmology and theology to claim to know what was their point of view about sacrifice?. I'm also in the quest of finding a living religion, to make contact with the ancestors, the land, the gods; but I may taking a different way since I don't feel I have the right to claim opinions as thruths, and to know exactly what our ancestors had. A lack of continuity on the pagan religions make difficult to set a belief system that all understand and all follow. Unless you want to found you own religion, with your own dogma held as thruth; more or less like Saulus of Tarso made with Christianity.
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Post by Adam on Dec 10, 2008 17:51:24 GMT -1
Yes agreed, it is such a damn pain in the arse that I cannot access my resources, by the gods I could do with an omnipotent memory when I post on here. I too do not wish for things to get sloppy or of a fantasy nature. I'm also very much a square peg in a round hole because I'm really searching the soul of pagan religion at the moment. No precise evidence, but loads of threads leading me to certain conclusions and then applying those conclusions to practice. But yes your right at the end of the day they are just my opinion. Big headed enough to perhaps believe they are logical ones, but obviously they appear to come from planet Mars to others. Not so... in a previous incarnation I studied maths... one thing that has stuck with me was the need for rigour *even when something appeared obvious or logical* What appears obvious/logical to everybody without rigour may be actually flawed and result in a false conclusion... the history of maths is littered with such pitfalls. So I will challenge your conclusions even if they seem so obvious to me, not just when they differ from mine. I don't know what to do Adam? I'm searching for my religion to come alive. It is now just that for me, a religion. Perhaps I'm alone in that quest? Or that quest in itself can only be a solitary one and there is no one to walk it with me? Are our differences so great? Or more to the point our desires? I want what our ancestors had Adam. A belief system that we all understood and followed together. Will that always remain elusive? Am I dreaming an impossible dream? Rigour without inspiration is death... inspiration without rigour opens the door to chaos... I don't think we (any of us here) are that different in our desires... and I don't think that spirituality/religion/theology is built from piecing together the little fragments of history, either... spirit is not reducible in that way... but we can create that measure by which we debate and discuss, and that has to be rigorously underpinned
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Post by redraven on Dec 10, 2008 19:51:11 GMT -1
I'd like to address some of the posts on this thread....... There is a vast difference between votive offerings and sacrifice. It also depends on what you believe. Sacrifice of your time is something everyone makes who intends to excel, a footballer, artist, musician, Doctor or within a religious context, monk, hermit etc. In my understanding of sacrifice, blood was of prime importance. Blood contained spirit, to let blood freed the spirit to the will of whoever made the sacrifice or for whom the sacrifice was made, be that an individual or a tribe. Yep, for ancient people, one would assume that blood was viewed as the vehicle of life, the method of transport of the life force. So are blood sacrifices necessary today or have we moved away from that? i cant say i am sure about time as an offering, after all, there is a lot of it to go around if you want to. whilst it is true that time spent on something cant be gotten back, you can certainly make time elsewhere to 'catch up' as it were. Can you give me an example of giving something that cannot be replaced? Materials are possible to replace, but as far as time goes, it's a one way journey, when the moment we're experiencing has gone, you may well "catch up" with that you may have originally had in mind to do, but you can never get that moment back again. Sacrifice, also has three different purposes. 1) to honour the deities you are offering to 2) a kind of exchange for a favour to be ask 3) as a renewal of the living balance and forces of the universe I agree with No 1. Why would a deity who exists in a non physical plane of existence require a favour? In older times yes, not so sure about today though ( and no, I am not saying you are wrong, just that the context in which you speak of may be different today from ancient times). A statement like my comittment to this or that is my sacrifice would have been laughed at. Really? OK, lets think about this scenario. The person in question commits time to his/her God. For this "sacrifice" they learn how to better communicate with said deity. Said deity then communicates a piece of information, over a period of time, (I'm thinking months at least here) that turns out to be a new technique for hunting that results in a greater success rate than previously. Now, it could be argued that a votive offering, in the form of an animal or some such thing could also have resulted in a similiar thing, and for the mindset of earlier times, I have no doubt that this would almost certainly have been the norm. Without getting into the area of shamanism and the interaction shamans have with the spirits of animals, in the first scenario, that of direct communication with said deity, if that person in question had spent time away from tribe and family to better learn from deity, would not he/she's sacrifice had been laughed at or ridiculed? The idea that we can "make up" time is a modern concept that I, for one, find to be flawed. Finally I have got quite used to being shot down in flames here, criticised and even accused of being dishonest. So my skin is growing very thick. Again it really has become water off a ducks back, I'm not remotely looking for sympathy. Those who know me here personally know that I am not an egotist, grandios, arrogant or up my own arsehole, even if I come across like that by email. Stefan, I think a lot of us here have been exaspirated at the way posts can be interpreted. I can say that when I first arrived here, after spending some vacuous time on some other forums, whose main concern was avoidance of friction, I did some, frankly, cringe worthy posts, because that was the environment I had associated with. It took a while for me to adjust to how this forum works, and I have to say, I had a good look at what it was I was trying to get from this forum. This took time, but the way through it for me was to continue to question and to not take as "personal" the questioning made here. This, for me, has led to a base for my spirituality that is based upon, where possible, solid foundations. I still have a good amount of UPG, but always try to identify it as just that, UPG. If others agree with what is my UPG, because they have similiar experiences, then we all benefit. RR One last thought, if time is meaningless because we all have so much of it, why do we get paid by the hour in most jobs?
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Post by aelfarh on Dec 10, 2008 22:53:08 GMT -1
Maybe I didn't explain myself in the proper way.
When I say a favour is the human who ask for the favour to the gods. eg. The sacrifice of a king or high rank member of society to eliminate a plague that is killing the cattle or avoiding a good harvest; or to stop a enemy from invading the country, etc.
Of course we also can think in the gods asking someone to sacrifice themselves as a gift, but I think that is not pretty common.
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