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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 11:10:18 GMT -1
Hello, Heath & Heathens Something has fallen into place for me (idea clicked in my head by the heathen prompt) about the use of the word "heath" in my research into medieval land use on the local downs (South Downs) where the words furze and heath were used together as a land description. It is also used in local butterfly names (not the current national ones) so the word "heath" was in use more widespread than the current usage for acidic soils rather than the alkaline chalk. I deduce that heath = common land
. The heathens were the common people, not the Romans. Heathen is from Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish", (c.f. Old Norse heiðinn). [OE. hen = OFris. hêthin, -en, OS. hêin (MDu., Du. heiden), OHG. heidan (MHG. heiden, Ger. heide), ON. heiinn (Sw., Da. heden); cf. Goth. hainô Gentile or heathen woman Heath [OE. h (:*haii-), corresponding, exc. in the formative suffix, with MLG. hêde, MDu. hêde, heide, Du. heide, hei, OHG. heida (only as in sense 2), MHG., G. heide, ON. heir, Goth. haii fem., gen. haijôs field, open untilled land, pasture, open country, from pre-Teut. root *kait-. A cognate has been suggested in L. b-ctum cow-pasture.] OED Before jumping to rash conclusions, it might be interesting to know if there is a Bryonthic word for heath or common land? Aside: I cannot find an OE word for pasture. Roman aside: Beyond the Pale = that's what the heathens were. Gawd, I am going out to see if the Coltsfoot and Lesser Celandine are flowering yet. Cheers Andy Horton glaucus@hotmail.com Adur Valley Nature Notes www.glaucus.org.uk/Adur2009.html www.glaucus.org.uk/Adur2008.html Adur Valley Nature Notes: February 2009 www.glaucus.org.uk/Feb2009.html
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Post by megli on Feb 18, 2009 13:10:12 GMT -1
The direct cognate of haith etc is W. coed, 'wood, forested area', < Brythonic (and Gaulish) *kaito-.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 18, 2009 14:45:12 GMT -1
Common land is a Norman legal concept IIRC. Does that make any difference to your train of though?
Also, Heathen is very specifically a Germanic useage, both as an alternative to pagan and as a Germanic pagan path. To discuss Romans and Heathens in the same context is problematic as temporally the Germanic Heathens came after the Romans.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 14:53:16 GMT -1
The direct cognate of haith etc is W. coed, 'wood, forested area', < Brythonic (and Gaulish) *kaito-. Perspective: England (or is it England & Wales?) Rackham gives figures for woodland as a percentage of the total land area, 30% at the end of Roman times, 15% by the Domesday Survey in 1086 and about 5% by 1895. (Some evidence contradicts this.) Still not jumping to any conclusions. My intuition says that heath = common land. cf. OE hamm (which is hemmed-in land, but I think it means enclosed land). My thinking comes along of the lines in Brythonic times, what is not enclosed is common land. However, this may not be correct as I have not researched the traditions and I may very well be wrong, or too simplified an answer. Just snowdrops, mud and puddles.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 15:03:57 GMT -1
Common land is a Norman legal concept IIRC. Does that make any difference to your train of though? Also, Heathen is very specifically a Germanic useage, both as an alternative to pagan and as a Germanic pagan path. To discuss Romans and Heathens in the same context is problematic as temporally the Germanic Heathens came after the Romans. Heathen is The German branch of languages Pagan is the Latin branch of languages. Commoner is roughly modern English. I might be looking for a descriptive for the common Britons in the Celtic language. Do place name studies reveal anything? I am looking for a glossary of Celtic Place Name Elements (first step) or a Celtic-English dictionary. Druids are the priests. What are the ordinary people called? The Normans were the first to write the law down. The concept must have pre-dated them, or rather when they acquired the land my force, they acceded some of the land to the peasants. Otherwise the peasants might revolt and burn down their castles.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 18, 2009 15:06:29 GMT -1
'Common land' has a specific meaning in legislature, where use is given to all but is actually owned by an individual. Your interpretation of heath is medieval based, as is the common land concept. Whilst it may be possilbe to track backwards, it's essential to understand the starting points and there is certainly no guarantee of relevance.
For a start, heath is basically a habitat descriptor, whilst common land is statement of legal ownership.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 15:14:36 GMT -1
For a start, heath is basically a habitat descriptor, whilst common land is statement of legal ownership. This is the modern mindset. I wonder if the heathen/pagan mindset was different? cf. Amazon rain forest dwellers, original Native Americans attitude to the land. I do not know enough about how Bryonthic society was run. I may have to get a book. I know a bit about the Saxons, but not earlier civilisations. In Saxon times only about 5% of the food was wild caught (one source) which is less than the % I eat today. Looking at a book now. One early page mentions Heathland Life. Jacob Sheep in a field today. They look a bit like the sheep in a picture in the book.
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Post by megli on Feb 18, 2009 15:49:14 GMT -1
My intuition says that heath = common land. Whether your intuition likes it or not, the Brythonic cognate of 'heath' means forest, not 'common land'. This suggests that that original concept (note how the reconstructed celtic and germanic roots are identical) isn't common land, but rather 'wild, uncultivated, uninhabited land', or the like, in contrast to cleared, cultivated/inhabited land. Germanic speakers seem to have ended up stressing the idea of untilledness, openness (hence heath, and related placenames like 'Hoath'), whereas Celtic speakers stressed the idea of wildness (hence keeping the word to mean 'woodland'. (This is a perfectly normal kind of semantic shift, incidentally).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 16:11:31 GMT -1
My intuition says that heath = common land. Whether your intuition likes it or not, the Brythonic cognate of 'heath' means forest, not 'common land'. This suggests that that original concept (note how the reconstructed celtic and germanic roots are identical) isn't common land, but rather 'wild, uncultivated, uninhabited land', or the like, in contrast to cleared, cultivated/inhabited land. Germanic speakers seem to have ended up stressing the idea of untilledness, openness (hence heath, and related placenames like 'Hoath'), whereas Celtic speakers stressed the idea of wildness (hence keeping the word to mean 'woodland'. (This is a perfectly normal kind of semantic shift, incidentally). Heath [OE. h (:*haii-), corresponding, exc. in the formative suffix, with MLG. hêde, MDu. hêde, heide, Du. heide, hei, OHG. heida (only as in sense 2), MHG., G. heide, ON. heir, Goth. haii fem., gen. haijôs field, open untilled land, pasture, open country, from pre-Teut. root *kait-. A cognate has been suggested in L. b-ctum cow-pasture.] OED I am going by the OED, bearing in mind that about 500 BC say 45% of the heath would have been woodland, with a higher % in Wales. Pasture (a French word) is a bit dubious as I think the livestock would have been enclosed. It might be community owned though with common grazing rights, or tended by shepherds. So pasture is OK. The Saxons do not seem to have a word for pasture either. Ref: Patterns of ground use in Flag Fen, East Anglia, England, can be interpreted as signs of large-scale sheep farming practiced by the Bronze Age community living in the area in 2000-1000 BC. Newark Road retains evidence of ditches that point to its use as a community stockyard that could hold a flock of several thousand as well as serve as a center for social gatherings. Meanwhile, excavations on Storey's Bar Road have also found pits and post holes that point to its use as a drafting race from the collecting pens. www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-18602248.html
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 16:46:40 GMT -1
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Post by megli on Feb 18, 2009 17:28:51 GMT -1
WTF? You're taking issue with the etymology of coed (drawn from Pedersen's Comparative Celtic Grammar and Jackson's Language and History in Early Britain - both very great works of scholarship) because crappy wikipedia doesn't mention it?!
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Post by megli on Feb 18, 2009 17:41:30 GMT -1
And in 500BC there weren't any Germanic speakers here to use the bloody word anyway, so arguments about woodland cover at that time are beside the point.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 18:43:57 GMT -1
WTF? You're taking issue with the etymology of coed (drawn from Pedersen's Comparative Celtic Grammar and Jackson's Language and History in Early Britain - both very great works of scholarship) because crappy wikipedia doesn't mention it?! No I am not. Keith Briggs confirms the etymology of coed and has a flow chart. My object was to look for the equivalent of heath in the Celtic/Welsh language and the flow chart shows it and I have seen Keith Briggs work on place names before. If in OE heath is to heathens the question for linguists is what is the Welsh equivalent? coed is to As for Wikipedia, all there is an omission. It is up to someone to include the missing information if they so wish.
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Post by Tegernacus on Feb 18, 2009 19:58:03 GMT -1
but you're looking for parallels in two different dark-age cultures imo.
Heathen means "wasteland dweller", and was coined by a bishop to describe the great unwashed germanic tribes.
The Brythonic equivalent would be... erm, well, since most Brythons were Romano-Pagans or Romano-Christians by the time the Bishops arrived, they would have been called pagan.
If you're looking for back-in-the-mists coed-dwellers, well, they would have been called... druids I guess.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 18, 2009 21:20:54 GMT -1
the question for linguists is what is the Welsh equivalent? A linguist has told you.
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Post by Francis on Feb 18, 2009 23:41:45 GMT -1
The direct cognate of haith etc is W. coed, 'wood, forested area', < Brythonic (and Gaulish) *kaito-. I don't know anything about the origins of the word forest or its use on the continent - but in terms of understanding the history of the british landscape (i.e. land use or land cover) from names etc. it's important to remember that 'forest' has nothing to do with woodland or trees. 'Forest' is a norman legal term for an area of land with different laws in place to protect hunting. Leads to much confusion - i.e. Forest of Bowland in Lancashire has had that name since the middle ages even though it was all but cleared of woodland since Roman times.
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Post by Francis on Feb 18, 2009 23:48:03 GMT -1
Hello, where the words furze and heath were used together as a land description. furze is an old name for gorse - if that helps your thinking on this? (Random aside -You often see old cottages with names like 'Firs cottage' that predate firs introduced from the Continent or NW America becoming common in England and Wales- 'Firs' is often a corruption of 'Furze'.)
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Post by Francis on Feb 18, 2009 23:53:27 GMT -1
Deduce???!! - Bloody Arthur Conan Doyle
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Post by Francis on Feb 19, 2009 0:33:39 GMT -1
Only vaguely related but many people confuse true heathland with large areas of dry bracken dominated lowland.
Bracken gets its name from the anglo saxon(?) word Brake meaning wasteland or uncultivated land.
I don't think the idea of heathland = common land has legs...
Heathland is a very specific human created landscape - its story is one of devastated woodland, followed by surprisingly few generations of farming, before the exhausted infertile soil drove the early farmers elsewhere.
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