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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2009 4:16:53 GMT -1
The medieval text said: In 1577, Erringham Farm had 270 acres of arable 40 acres of hay meadow 158 acres of pasture 100 acres of marsh 150 acres of furze and heath Grazing for 1000 sheep stock of 500 ewes , 8 draft oxen 6 cows and 20 pigs. In 1612 Erringham it was divided from Old Shoreham by a hedge. This is not alkaline soil but chalk downland where Gorse does not grow. It is sheep and arable country. There is also a medieval map. The land is pure chalk soils. It is not even fertile enough for trees* and even thorn would be scanty in medieval times. It is just possible that Gorse could grow on the clay outcrops but these are not on the map and are miles away. (*Sycamore can now grow on disturbed land.) It would have been original chalk downland with downland herbs (not even grass). The land in many places would fit the description as too infertile for agriculture with sheep at one per 1.25 acres maximum. Keith Briggs concludes: Heath The original meaning would be 'wood' or 'forest', but the meanings later fluctuate and can include 'open land'. These shifts to apparently widely varying meanings are typical of such landscape words and can be explained by cultural factors. My note: Cultural factors could be the expedient of man chopping down the trees. Bryonthic context: Open land would be at least 45% of trees in 500 BC. Sussex geological context: Place names called heath in Sussex are on the Wealden clay, e.g. Hayward's heath, Heathfield. This is where trees would grow prefusely as anywhere in Britain before Man came along. So it does look if heath = woodland (originally) in Bryonthic times. By the time the Saxons came along, more than half the trees had been chopped down and they had wudu for wood, lĂȘah for wood clearing etc. The latter two would be an economic resource and may be owned.
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Post by arth_frown on Feb 19, 2009 9:54:22 GMT -1
It would have been original chalk downland with downland herbs (not even grass). The land in many places would fit the description as too infertile for agriculture with sheep at one per 1.25 acres maximum. No it was not originaly chalk downland. It was wooded until the bronze age. They cut down the trees that is when soil erosion happened. Leaving it with poor soil which downland plants thrive on. If you look at the the north downs which is chalk it's heavily wooded and has gorse on it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2009 11:25:49 GMT -1
The North Downs has clay with flints, which is why Gorse grows on it. Some parts of the South Downs also have clay with flints and Gorse can grow, but not on the downs north of Old Shoreham where Erringham is. It is adjacent to Shoreham Cement Works (now closed). This is chalk on the downs, alluvium in the valley. However, the trees would have been chopped down for arable crops to grow in the deeper soils on the downs. This would have begun in earnest in Bryonthic times (terraced lychets) and expanded when the Romans arrived. However, in many areas (e.g. Erringham) trees would not grow because of the thin infertile soil and the salt spray. This farming would have eroded the thin layer of good soil on the chalk and some land would have reverted to heath. This land had a name in medieval times. I've forgotten what it is. I think it began with the letter G........ The woody shrubs are Privet, Dogwood, Hawthorn, Wayfaring Tree. These are climax on infertile chalk soils. Beech is climax on deeper soils historically. Now it is the introduced Sycamore. Field Maple also grows. Roughly, the same, but Gorse is an indicator of clay on the otherwise chalk downs. Occurs on Lancing Clump and Southwick Hill, but not Mill Hill and Erringham Hill. Mill Hill www.glaucus.org.uk/Millhill.htmwww.glaucus.org.uk/Vetch.htmlAnyrate the purpose of the message was to arrive at the Celtic equivalent for heath, which was found out to be coed. A successful conclusion. Still awaiting the Celtic equivalent of heathen?
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Post by littleraven on Feb 19, 2009 13:48:29 GMT -1
The medieval text said: In 1577, Erringham Farm had 270 acres of arable 40 acres of hay meadow 158 acres of pasture 100 acres of marsh 150 acres of furze and heath Grazing for 1000 sheep stock of 500 ewes , 8 draft oxen 6 cows and 20 pigs. In 1612 Erringham it was divided from Old Shoreham by a hedge. This is not alkaline soil but chalk downland where Gorse does not grow. FURZE *IS* GORSE. How the hell can you justify using evidence from the 16th century to validate your ideas about something from one and a half thousand years earlier? Look Perseus, you are being corrected here by academics and land owners, people who know what they are talking about, people who you would be well advised to listen to. Asking the same question again and again until the answer you want appears is not really condusive to good discussion.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 19, 2009 13:51:24 GMT -1
Still awaiting the Celtic equivalent of heathen? Er, no, you've already been told what the equivalent is, you just don't seem to be listening.
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Post by megli on Feb 19, 2009 14:01:19 GMT -1
There isn't a Welsh word meaning 'people of the untilled land/woodland' parallel to English 'heathen', because the Britons were in a different socio-cultural stage when Welsh was being written down. Heathen comes to mean 'non-Christian' because the A-S people out in the wilds, on the 'heath', were less easy to reach for evangelisation than those in settlements, for obvious reasons, and this distinction has been recorded in the fabric of the language. Whereas the Britons were largely already Christians by the 5th century and many had been for some time (St Patrick's family, who were Britons, had already had three generations in holy orders in the first half of the 5th century). So you won't find such a word, because there was no need for it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2009 16:02:27 GMT -1
The medieval text said: In 1577, Erringham Farm had 270 acres of arable 40 acres of hay meadow 158 acres of pasture 100 acres of marsh 150 acres of furze and heath Grazing for 1000 sheep stock of 500 ewes , 8 draft oxen 6 cows and 20 pigs. In 1612 Erringham it was divided from Old Shoreham by a hedge. This is not alkaline soil but chalk downland where Gorse does not grow. FURZE *IS* GORSE. How the hell can you justify using evidence from the 16th century to validate your ideas about something from one and a half thousand years earlier? Look Perseus, you are being corrected here by academics and land owners, people who know what they are talking about, people who you would be well advised to listen to. Asking the same question again and again until the answer you want appears is not really condusive to good discussion. Maybe it was a mistake by the writer. Gorse does not occur on the chalk downs in this part. It would be Hawthorn, perhaps Sloethorn. It was just an unresolved puzzle.
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Post by Francis on Feb 19, 2009 19:18:57 GMT -1
The medieval text said: 150 acres of furze and heath This is not alkaline soil but chalk downland where Gorse does not grow. ...... It is just possible that Gorse could grow on the clay outcrops but these are not on the map and are miles away. Gorse grows perfectly well on chalk downland. Being a legume it's able to indirectly fix its own nitrogen, and is thus at a selective advantage over most of its potential competitors on poor infertile soils. Where scrub starts to encroach on downland gorse is always a major component - unless there is active management by humans (cutting or managed grazing) to effect the contrary. www.southdownsonline.org/learning/rte.asp?id=8The link above is aimed at the general public rather than the specialist, and isn't concerned with the specific locality you're interested in - but you may be able to take some useful information from it about gorse/furze on thin chalk downland soils. I think your appreciation of how the landscape you're interested in came into being, and how it has been managed would be greatly increased by reading Oliver Rackham's "The History of the Countryside"
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Post by arth_frown on Feb 19, 2009 19:26:57 GMT -1
FURZE *IS* GORSE. How the hell can you justify using evidence from the 16th century to validate your ideas about something from one and a half thousand years earlier? Look Perseus, you are being corrected here by academics and land owners, people who know what they are talking about, people who you would be well advised to listen to. Asking the same question again and again until the answer you want appears is not really condusive to good discussion. Maybe it was a mistake by the writer. Gorse does not occur on the chalk downs in this part. It would be Hawthorn, perhaps Sloethorn. It was just an unresolved puzzle. Try this link it says that gorse grows on chalk and any free draining soil www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/conservation/advice/gorse/index.asp
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Post by arth_frown on Feb 19, 2009 19:28:16 GMT -1
lol Francis beat me to it.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 19, 2009 19:31:00 GMT -1
AC/DC have song, it's called "Shot down in Flames" ...
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Post by megli on Feb 19, 2009 21:27:03 GMT -1
My parents live on chalk and their garden has gorse growing very happily thereon.
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Post by Adam on Feb 19, 2009 23:20:14 GMT -1
neat trick in a 'credit crunch'
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 0:05:19 GMT -1
Trust your own eyes: Alternative opinion: About this herb: Scientific name: Ulex europaeus Description: (Common) Gorse is an evergreen shrub in the family Fabaceae, native to western Europe from a northerly point of The United Kingdom south to Portugal, and Westerly point of Ireland east to Galiza in Belgium. The thorny bush can reach a height of 7 feet and withstands snow and cold. Gorse prefers to grow in stony soil, dry pastures and moors. It shuns soil containing calcium. The flowers are golden yellow, up to 1 inch cm long, with the typical pea-flower structure. The fragrant flowers are produced throughout the year, but mainly in the early spring. tinyurl.com/cdbbzb (wrong link assigned) Correct is: www.wellness-shop.co.uk/gorse.html?frmSearch=rock%20rose#detailsIt may depend on how chalky the soil is.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 20, 2009 9:30:11 GMT -1
That link takes you to Bach Flower essences. Not a great source tbh.
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Post by arth_frown on Feb 20, 2009 10:04:14 GMT -1
Trust your own eyes: Alternative opinion: About this herb: Scientific name: Ulex europaeus Description: (Common) Gorse is an evergreen shrub in the family Fabaceae, native to western Europe from a northerly point of The United Kingdom south to Portugal, and Westerly point of Ireland east to Galiza in Belgium. The thorny bush can reach a height of 7 feet and withstands snow and cold. Gorse prefers to grow in stony soil, dry pastures and moors. It shuns soil containing calcium. The flowers are golden yellow, up to 1 inch cm long, with the typical pea-flower structure. The fragrant flowers are produced throughout the year, but mainly in the early spring. tinyurl.com/cdbbzbIt may depend on how chalky the soil is. If you click on the link given by Francis you will see Gorse growing quite prolific next a typical South Downs dew pond. If it "shuns" chalk why would it be so prolific?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 10:29:09 GMT -1
Trust your own eyes: Alternative opinion: About this herb: Scientific name: Ulex europaeus Description: (Common) Gorse is an evergreen shrub in the family Fabaceae, native to western Europe from a northerly point of The United Kingdom south to Portugal, and Westerly point of Ireland east to Galiza in Belgium. The thorny bush can reach a height of 7 feet and withstands snow and cold. Gorse prefers to grow in stony soil, dry pastures and moors. It shuns soil containing calcium. The flowers are golden yellow, up to 1 inch cm long, with the typical pea-flower structure. The fragrant flowers are produced throughout the year, but mainly in the early spring. tinyurl.com/cdbbzbIt may depend on how chalky the soil is. If you click on the link given by Francis you will see Gorse growing quite prolific next a typical South Downs dew pond. If it "shuns" chalk why would it be so prolific? Because dewponds are located on non-porous soil by choice. This means clay. Chalk is very porous.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 10:43:21 GMT -1
perseus...Do you want to learn something or do you want to be right? Or..do you ant to troll?
What is it exactly that you want?
I don't know why I read all of this thread, as it frusts me to see someone so stubborn...
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Post by arth_frown on Feb 20, 2009 10:43:46 GMT -1
If you click on the link given by Francis you will see Gorse growing quite prolific next a typical South Downs dew pond. If it "shuns" chalk why would it be so prolific? Because dewponds are located on non-porous soil by choice. This means clay. Chalk is very porous. You seem like a guy who wants to be right even when the facts say otherwise. I suggest you do some easy research BEFORE engaging into a argument. That way it will save you and I and everyone else a lot of time. Dew ponds on the south downs are on chalk and are puddled out with chalk to make them non porous. Some of the more modern ones are lined with concrete. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_pondOn wiki there is a very good quote on how a south downs dew pnd is made.
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