|
Post by Rion on Jul 3, 2010 13:27:49 GMT -1
I know some of you don't 'do' gods, and I know others of you tend not to focus much on practice, but I have a question for those of you who do.
We have mentioned various festivals in the year honouring different gods (Rigantona in December, Brigantia in February, Belenos in May, Maponos at Midsummer, Lugos in August), and Deiniol mentioned on his blog that he performs (or tries to) a daily devotion to Grannos, but I was wondering how other members of Brython honour the other gods. Do you perform regular sacrifices? Are there particular words you use?
For example, I live by the sea, and the sea is a large part of my life here. I feel I should be doing something to honour Nodons/Tigernonos but I don't really know what. Also, I am still studying for a research degree, so some sort of sacrifices to gods such as Ogmios seem to be necessary.
Another example: I have a friend who is very interested in Greek Polytheism, and apparently in her belief system there is a pattern of daily devotions to the household spirits, to the goddess of the hearth, and then particular days in the month are sacred to particular gods, and sacrifices are made to them on those days. After looking at some aspects of Roman practice, I find the same sort of thing. I don't mean to suggest (at all!) that we should be taking parts of Hellenic or Roman polytheism and applying it to Brython, but I do quite like the idea of more regular devotions to the gods, especially those who are relevant to us, such as Brigantia (for those of us who actually use the stove) etc.
Rambling aside, I suppose my question is do other members of Brython feel it is worth performing small devotional rituals on, say, a monthly basis to certain gods we feel are relevant (for example, I do not really feel Ambactonos or Gobannonos are that relevant to me, as I don't farm or work metal), and if so, what format should these rituals take? Are short daily prayers to ancestors/household spirits/Brigantia as mother of the hearth a good idea, or am I moving too far away from reconstructionism to some sort of 'yay the gods are wonderful and talk to me' sort of fluffiness?
|
|
|
Post by deiniol on Jul 3, 2010 17:31:37 GMT -1
Quasi-formalised daily prayers to whatever one holds sacred is such a human universal that it would really surprise me if the pre-Christian Britons didn't do the same. It's really only in the modern world that we've lost this: if we take, for example, the prayers of the Carmina Gadelica we can see quite how significantly formalised expressions of religiosity interpenetrated daily life in premodern times. Unlike you, I would suggest (quite strongly) that anyone interested in the reconstructionist side of Brythonic spirituality (quibbles about whether it's "reconstruction" or "recreation" or "reconnection" or whatever aside) take elements of Roman and Greek polytheism and incorporate them into their personal practice: not only are these among the best-attested instantiations of Indo-European polytheism, but that's also how reconstruction works. What I would say, though, is that it's important not to simply import wholesale, and it's important to look at Indo-Iranian, Baltic and Germanic evidence as well. An overview of all of these traditions reveals that daily devotions to a hearth deity (Agni, Vesta, Hestia, Gabija et hoc genus omne) is persistent and pervasive. We have evidence for Gaulish hearth-reverence, so we know that the Celts did it as well. Folk tradition, unsurprisingly, speaks of "household spirits" quite a lot, not just in the Celtic lands but pretty much worldwide. So no, I don't think it's moving too far from reconstructionism at all. As to your question about words and forms, you already know most of what I do from my blog My next post, perhaps sometime this evening, will be an expansion of the dawn rituals I've been doing recently. For further ideas, you also might like to read Ceisiwr Serith's suggestions on the domestic cult.
|
|
|
Post by Rion on Jul 4, 2010 9:14:09 GMT -1
I'm hesitant to just take bits of other belief systems and justify their appropriation with the fact that it's Indo-European, but I see your point about doing a little research to see whether it truly is a pan-IE thing and then being fairly confident about reconstructing something appropriate.
Thank you for your blog post today, it was exactly the sort of thing I felt I needed. Now to compose some sort of prayer (if possible in Gallo-Brittonic, wish me luck!) to Brigantia as the mother of the hearth, and also for the Suleviae and Matrones. Thanks for the link, it looks really useful.
I would be interested in reading any other people's thoughts on the matter also.
|
|
|
Post by potia on Jul 4, 2010 9:52:45 GMT -1
I don't currently do any formalised daily practice but I do monthly devotions at the full moon to Rigantona and Brigantia and dark moon one for my ancestors. I've written about them before here and elsewhere.
The full moon ones did include the Cailleach during the winter months but since the gathering in May I've not included her, That's not because I don't honour her but it just doesn't feel right at the moment. It's odd because I was intending to do things as normal and then on the evening in question I completely forgot with other things going on. When the same thing happened the next full moon I took the hint. I suspect that this might change again in the winter months.
In the past I have had daily practices usually involving chants but nothing at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Jul 4, 2010 11:26:21 GMT -1
I'm hesitant to just take bits of other belief systems and justify their appropriation with the fact that it's Indo-European, but I see your point about doing a little research to see whether it truly is a pan-IE thing and then being fairly confident about reconstructing something appropriate. i think the sensible route here is to look at those other practices and if you find a common 'thread' say a household cult of some sort in several related cultures (lets say Roman, gaulish and scandinavian) then there is a strong liklihood that such a thing of sorts existed in brythonic culture. we use something similar in palaeontology called 'cladistics' (a technique pinched by linguists funnily enough); if a branch on the family tree of some group of animals all have something in common that we know for sure i.e feathers then there i a strong likelihood that a new animal discovered from partial remains which fit in the middle of that branch also had feathers and it is parsimonious to assume so until evidence suggests otherwise. the trick then is to adapt it to make it (a) relevant to today and you and (b) to adapt it it make it culturally and religiously... appropriate. anyhow... i also have regular monthly devotionals. i have full moon (Rigantona) and new moon (household cult; Briganti, ancestors and Matres) as crass as it seems to simply link to a blog, it saves time cylchriannon.blogspot.com/search/label/Liturgyat the moment i am building up a set of liturgical material so as to make the rituals somewhat formulaic. so, the opening is the same whether the monthly devotionals or festivals, it is then the body of the ritual that then changes depending on event or deity, each has their own hymns and words offered during libation etc. i am finding this hugely rewarding and over the rest of the year will put together a full yearly cycle worth of ritual liturgy, including material for other small events; the first thunderstorms, first frosts, first bottle of sloe gin opened, first fruit harvests etc things like that. the intention being that alongside the festival ritual there will be small acts of ritual woven into the everyday. as to daily devotional, i simply cant do it. i find i will miss one due to work or simply forgetting and then i feel bad about it and end up trashing the whole thing. maybe in the future...
|
|
|
Post by deiniol on Jul 4, 2010 16:18:57 GMT -1
we use something similar in palaeontology called 'cladistics' (a technique pinched by linguists funnily enough) Hah! You lot stole the very concept of evolution from linguists! I've always run into this problem when I've attempted to do daily devotions in the past, which is why I have expressly promised myself that I'm only going to offer a dawn observance at dawn, if I'm awake.
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Jul 4, 2010 16:46:23 GMT -1
... as to daily devotional, i simply cant do it. i find i will miss one due to work or simply forgetting and then i feel bad about it and end up trashing the whole thing. maybe in the future... Yes, if you promise, (yourself, the gods, associates) that you will do a daily devotion you've got to keep to it, and that can be difficult. There were times in the past when I tried to do this, and others when I kept everything informal and the daily observations might be no more than a quiet moment or a thought cast in the right direction. At present I have a small shrine in my garden. I am committed to doing devotions here 'regularly' rather than daily. I have a wooden horse's head for Rhiannon, a representation of a well for the water spirits and the well of life and horse tails growing in a small watery pit for both of them. I pour water to keep the 'well' and the horse tails (which need it boggy) wet and pour stronger libations to Rhiannon and to other gods at special times. I also visit a local river to honour the river goddess and have made offerings to Bride at a site near the river.
|
|
|
Post by Brochfael on Sept 20, 2010 14:59:06 GMT -1
We have mentioned various festivals in the year honouring different gods (Rigantona in December, Brigantia in February, Belenos in May, Maponos at Midsummer, Lugos in August), Interesting! Personally I celebrate Gwyl Mabon (or the feast of Maponos) on the 25th of December. I view Mabon as the young or reborn sun (or Son) and therefore I celebrate his feast on what may be the first day after the winter solstice when a lengthening of the hours of daylight may be perceived. I'd be interested to see what people think of such a timing of his feast. Certainly I've never understood why some Wiccans choose to celebrate Mabon at the Autumn equinox.
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Sept 20, 2010 22:12:46 GMT -1
We have mentioned various festivals in the year honouring different gods (Rigantona in December, Brigantia in February, Belenos in May, Maponos at Midsummer, Lugos in August), Interesting! Personally I celebrate Gwyl Mabon (or the feast of Maponos) on the 25th of December. I view Mabon as the young or reborn sun (or Son) and therefore I celebrate his feast on what may be the first day after the winter solstice when a lengthening of the hours of daylight may be perceived. I'd be interested to see what people think of such a timing of his feast. Certainly I've never understood why some Wiccans choose to celebrate Mabon at the Autumn equinox. Maponos was associated by the Romans with Apollo. That would make him a god with solar attributes rather than, like Helios, 'the Sun God'. Giving him a feast day at the Winter Solstice has its attractions, but if this means he becomes 'the Sun' this seems to detract from his other attributes as a god of music and song. He is a god I feel very close to and yet can't always quite fully fathom. I don't see Mabon simply as the young son/Sun (which is simply to play with words in English which wouldn't apply in other languages) so much as youth itself (like Aengus Óg). So I agree that it seems odd to celebrate him at the Autumn Equinox as in that role the Spring seems more appropriate. When Arthur releases Mabon from the dungeon at Caer Loyw in Culhwch ac Olwen, he comes from the darkness into the light. Into, I think, the Spring Sunshine.
|
|
|
Post by potia on Sept 21, 2010 9:41:44 GMT -1
My understanding of the time period is limited but I'm not sure that the link between Apollo and the sun was all that common in the time period the Romans were in Britian. For me this strengthes the importance of the links with music and song and also of healing, oracular powers and pools.
Recently I have been trying to do regular weekly devotions for Maponos on Sundays involving visiting pools and I've had some interesting expereinces that seem to indicate that either Maponos, the local spirits or both like what I'm doing.
|
|
|
Post by deiniol on Sept 21, 2010 19:21:49 GMT -1
My understanding of the time period is limited but I'm not sure that the link between Apollo and the sun was all that common in the time period the Romans were in Britian. I dunno, the association between Apollo and the sun is pretty much ab initio: it's Helios who's the latecomer.
|
|
|
Post by potia on Sept 21, 2010 20:52:12 GMT -1
My understanding of the time period is limited but I'm not sure that the link between Apollo and the sun was all that common in the time period the Romans were in Britian. I dunno, the association between Apollo and the sun is pretty much ab initio: it's Helios who's the latecomer. Having looked up "ab initio" and discovered it means from the beginning I now understand your reply and I've learnt something new As I say I'm no expert on this and got my info from Wikipedia. The following seems to imply to me that in some circles there may be doubt about the Apollo/Sol link: "In Latin texts, on the other hand, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with Sol among the Augustan poets of the first century, not even in the conjurations of Aeneas and Latinus in Aeneid XII (161–215).[2] Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the third century CE." From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApolloCan you shed some light on this matter for me as I am genuinely confused on this matter? It's pretty clear about the Helios bit coming in later but I can't find clarity on the solar attributes bit.
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Sept 22, 2010 17:27:54 GMT -1
I dunno, the association between Apollo and the sun is pretty much ab initio: it's Helios who's the latecomer. Having looked up "ab initio" and discovered it means from the beginning I now understand your reply and I've learnt something new As I say I'm no expert on this and got my info from Wikipedia. The following seems to imply to me that in some circles there may be doubt about the Apollo/Sol link: "In Latin texts, on the other hand, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with Sol among the Augustan poets of the first century, not even in the conjurations of Aeneas and Latinus in Aeneid XII (161–215).[2] Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the third century CE." From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApolloCan you shed some light on this matter for me as I am genuinely confused on this matter? It's pretty clear about the Helios bit coming in later but I can't find clarity on the solar attributes bit. I'm wondering if I should have introduced the association with Apollo as it was done for illustrative purposes might be a red herring (God equivalences are always a bit risky if you want clarity). My main point was just that, although Maponos might have attributes linking him with the Sun, he has other, more apparent attributes in respect of poetic inspiration etc and while 'Mabon' might suggest the young Sun beginning a new journey and hence associate him with the Winter Solstice, I think it more appropriate to link him to Spring and Summer so our placing of his festival at Midsummer seems much more appropriate - the Sun is strong but on Earth it is also a time of magic and burgeoning life.
|
|
|
Post by deiniol on Sept 22, 2010 20:38:07 GMT -1
Potia: I suspect that we're talking at cross purposes here. Apollōn (let us use the Greek form of his name for clarity) in Greek culture seems to have had strong solar associations from our earliest attestations: Helios as a distinct character came rather later. Apollōn was adopted by people in Italy (the Etruscans as Aplu, the Romans as Apollo) pretty much as an entire package, without any syncretism to a native deity. It is a fair question to ask why this was: why no conflation of Sol and Apollo?
In my opinion, it is because the Roman god Sol Indiges had faded from prominence very early, being subsumed into the portfolio of Janus. Effectively, the Romans had no god of the sun, and Apollo filled the gap. Sol was only resurrected later, when Greek literary influence became stronger upon Roman literature, and a counterpart to Helios was needed. Certainly, Sol was never employed in the context of interpretatio romana: we do not find any deities at all syncretised to Sol except Helios.
Revenons à nos moutons. Maponos, in my opinion, exhibits clear solar attributes: this is what is most clear in the recorded stories of Mabon, and the inscriptional evidence from Gaul points in that direction as well. Additionally, personally I don't see much direct evidence in favour of Mabon/Maponos being a god of music, poetic inspiration, love etc. Those attributes are more readily applied to Óengus mac ind Óg. However, I would hesitate before using this as evidence for Maponos: it is not at all impossible that classical descriptions of Apollo influenced the characterisation of Óengus.
Your mileage may vary, of course. I am curious as to where the connection between Mabon and poetry comes from, though: it's not something I've ever picked up from the texts.
As to the timing of any festival in his honour, midwinter does have more than solar implications to favour it. The main portion of Culhwch and Olwen- Mabon's release and the subsequent hunting- all take place on 1st January, which points to some association of this deity with midwinter. However, I do rather agree that spring or summer is a more appropriate time to honour him (youth is one characteristic of his that is indisputable, and the associations with spring are obvious). Also, if one accepts the sun-god association, we ought to remember that this is Britain and the least likely time you're going to see the sun here is during the winter!
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Sept 22, 2010 21:52:34 GMT -1
As to the timing of any festival in his honour, midwinter does have more than solar implications to favour it. The main portion of Culhwch and Olwen- Mabon's release and the subsequent hunting- all take place on 1st January, which points to some association of this deity with midwinter. Where does the 1st January date come from?
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Sept 22, 2010 23:09:22 GMT -1
As to the timing of any festival in his honour, midwinter does have more than solar implications to favour it. The main portion of Culhwch and Olwen- Mabon's release and the subsequent hunting- all take place on 1st January, which points to some association of this deity with midwinter. Where does the 1st January date come from? IIRC the 1st January was a Roman political date, it may have been the period where the Roman consul began their period of office.
|
|
|
Post by deiniol on Sept 23, 2010 5:55:15 GMT -1
As to the timing of any festival in his honour, midwinter does have more than solar implications to favour it. The main portion of Culhwch and Olwen- Mabon's release and the subsequent hunting- all take place on 1st January, which points to some association of this deity with midwinter. Where does the 1st January date come from? I'm not sure what you mean here. The date is given in the text itself, obviously: it's first mentioned by Arthur's doorkeeper to Culhwch himself, and then pretty much all the action occurs at intervals of "on the same day a year later", going through a couple of iterations before Cei and Bedwyr return to Arthur's court on the same day, and everyone starts the hunt to find and release Mabon. Why the redactor decided to set the story on that date, however, we can't ever really know. It could simply have been a striving for narrative neatness, rather than anything mystical.
|
|
|
Post by Heron on Sept 23, 2010 21:37:28 GMT -1
Where does the 1st January date come from? I'm not sure what you mean here. The date is given in the text itself, obviously: it's first mentioned by Arthur's doorkeeper to Culhwch himself, and then pretty much all the action occurs at intervals of "on the same day a year later", going through a couple of iterations before Cei and Bedwyr return to Arthur's court on the same day, and everyone starts the hunt to find and release Mabon. Why the redactor decided to set the story on that date, however, we can't ever really know. It could simply have been a striving for narrative neatness, rather than anything mystical. It's certainly the case that Culhwch's arrival at Arthur's court can be dated to 1st Jan, though only by a formulaic construction about doorkeepers. It's certainly the case that it's exactly a year after his arrival at court that they set out to find Olwen. After that things get hazy. The "yg kyvenw yr un dyd ymmhen y vlwydyn" at line 822 seems to refer to a year after killing Wrnach. But even if they return to Arthur's court a year after leaving, they go off to free Eidoel before Mabon, and then the 'oldest animals' sequence intervenes before his discovery. And even if this was exactly a year again, the significance of the date for Mabon in particular would be flimsy would it not? If Arthur's raid on Caer Loyw is cognate with the raid on Annwn, as some have thought, then Mabon, who was stolen away from his mother as a baby after three nights (cf Pryderi taken from Rhiannon) is released from the Otherworld; which seems to me more like a Spring occasion than a reference to the infant Sun at the Winter Solstice.
|
|
|
Devotions
Nov 3, 2017 15:05:51 GMT -1
via mobile
Post by gruffudd on Nov 3, 2017 15:05:51 GMT -1
Old post but why not...
I too celebrate Maponus at what we now call Christmas. I just can't see it any other way.
If you're into the literature there is a pattern of a youth being stolen three days after birth. If you look at the solstice this lines up, with the apparent stand still of three days after the solstice itself. We know the ancients marked this occasion but to what end who can say. We also know that the early Christian's, to ease conversion, placed their holidays on top of similar pagan holidays. So the birth of the divine son of their pantheon was placed on top of the birth of the divine son in another's pantheon.
Then in the literature when Mabon is rescued from the darkness I would be inclined to see it was the end of the longer nights rather than entering the spring time although this is the promise of things to come.
I don't feel celebrating his solar associations takes away from any other association. Just as celebrating Rigantonas sovereignty association doesn't take away from Her maternal associations.
I hope this makes sense...
|
|