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Post by lorna on Nov 5, 2017 8:23:42 GMT -1
Old post but why not... I too celebrate Maponus at what we now call Christmas. I just can't see it any other way. If you're into the literature there is a pattern of a youth being stolen three days after birth. If you look at the solstice this lines up, with the apparent stand still of three days after the solstice itself. We know the ancients marked this occasion but to what end who can say. We also know that the early Christian's, to ease conversion, placed their holidays on top of similar pagan holidays. So the birth of the divine son of their pantheon was placed on top of the birth of the divine son in another's pantheon. Then in the literature when Mabon is rescued from the darkness I would be inclined to see it was the end of the longer nights rather than entering the spring time although this is the promise of things to come. I don't feel celebrating his solar associations takes away from any other association. Just as celebrating Rigantonas sovereignty association doesn't take away from Her maternal associations. I hope this makes sense... Thanks Gruffudd. I'd never thought to associate Mabon's theft when he was three nights old with the three days before and after the solstice before. That's really interesting. I've also personally felt that Maponos is associated with the Winter Solstice and rebirth of the sun too. I think the story of Mabon's rescue where Arthur's men go up the Hafren on the salmon's back to rescue him from a house of stone seems to be symbolic of fertility - sperm swimming up into the womb then the child being born. If Modron is a land goddess we can imagine her giving birth to the sun as a radiant youth. This all fits with the winter solstice for me. Plus I think Mother's Night, Modronacht, on the 24th could be related to Modron with Mabon emerging from the darkness on the 25th when the six days of sun stand still are over. Maybe it has something to do with Mabon being safely born and returned to her arms. I've wondered whether, prior to the Arthurianisation of this tale, it was Modron who searched for Mabon with the help of the Oldest Animals or the Oldest Animals themselves who found Mabon.
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Post by Heron on Nov 6, 2017 14:33:34 GMT -1
Old post but why not... I too celebrate Maponus at what we now call Christmas. I just can't see it any other way. If you're into the literature there is a pattern of a youth being stolen three days after birth. If you look at the solstice this lines up, with the apparent stand still of three days after the solstice itself. We know the ancients marked this occasion but to what end who can say. We also know that the early Christian's, to ease conversion, placed their holidays on top of similar pagan holidays. So the birth of the divine son of their pantheon was placed on top of the birth of the divine son in another's pantheon. Then in the literature when Mabon is rescued from the darkness I would be inclined to see it was the end of the longer nights rather than entering the spring time although this is the promise of things to come. I don't feel celebrating his solar associations takes away from any other association. Just as celebrating Rigantonas sovereignty association doesn't take away from Her maternal associations. I hope this makes sense... Interesting to look over past debates ..... What I said then was intended to establish Midsummer as the Festival of Maponos. That is not to say that Maponos only belongs to this season. Clearly the Divine Son being born at Midwinter Solstice makes sense. Adding Midsummer, as the festival of the adult Maponos, provides a pivotal axis across the cycle of the year. Maponos being born 'out of the darkness into the light', as I put it then, also makes sense as a Midwinter theme, so the release from the dungeon at this time of year, or a little later, also makes sense. Parallel to to the story of Mabon being taken from his mother at three nights old, as told in Culhwch and Olwen, there is the story of Pryderi being taken from Rhiannon in the Mabinogi, though here the tale specifically says that it happens on May Eve. It would be enlightening to have another story about Pryderi at Calan Gaeaf to make another axis across the year. He is taken again as an adult, but this is not at a specified time of year, unless we take the 'enchantment on Dyfed' as indicating a prolonged winter. But we do have the Chamalières tablet in Gaulish which invokes Maponos in the Otherworld. So it is possible, taking the mother and son pair Matrona and Maponos (>Modron and Mabon) and the mother and son pair Rhiannon and Pryderi as expressions of the same deities (and so Rigantona and Matrona - Great Queen and Great Mother), to construct a systematic cycle of observances for both the Mother and the Son. But gods are not defined by our programmes of worship. We may construct these as gifts for them, but if we regard tham as dynamic rather than as static archetypes, then we need to be flexible in the way we regard them. So I would agree with you that celebrating certain archetypal expression of a god should not exclude celebrating the same god in a different context.
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Post by Heron on Nov 6, 2017 14:58:27 GMT -1
I'd never thought to associate Mabon's theft when he was three nights old with the three days before and after the solstice before. That's really interesting. I've also personally felt that Maponos is associated with the Winter Solstice and rebirth of the sun too. I think the story of Mabon's rescue where Arthur's men go up the Hafren on the salmon's back to rescue him from a house of stone seems to be symbolic of fertility - sperm swimming up into the womb then the child being born. If Modron is a land goddess we can imagine her giving birth to the sun as a radiant youth. This all fits with the winter solstice for me. Plus I think Mother's Night, Modronacht, on the 24th could be related to Modron with Mabon emerging from the darkness on the 25th when the six days of sun stand still are over. Maybe it has something to do with Mabon being safely born and returned to her arms. I've wondered whether, prior to the Arthurianisation of this tale, it was Modron who searched for Mabon with the help of the Oldest Animals or the Oldest Animals themselves who found Mabon. One of the first set observances we developed on here was the Midwinter cycle from Epona's Day (18 Dec in the Roman calendar) to the Midwinter Solstice three days later and then on through the first glimmerings of returning light three days after this. There is also an inscription in Gaulish which counts back from the Calend (1st January) to Epona's Day implying a significant series of events between them. The argument earlier in this thread for Jan 1st as the day when Mabon was released from Caer Loyw, although I'm still not sure this can be firmly established, would make sense in this context. Relating Modronacht to Modron would be fruitful if it were possible, though I don't know if fusing a Germanic and a Celtic word in this way has any etymological clout behind it?
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Post by lorna on Nov 10, 2017 19:41:50 GMT -1
... gods are not defined by our programmes of worship. We may construct these as gifts for them, but if we regard tham as dynamic rather than as static archetypes, then we need to be flexible in the way we regard them. So I would agree with you that celebrating certain archetypal expression of a god should not exclude celebrating the same god in a different context. I agree that composing a 'programme of worship' shouldn't just be based on the comparison of myths and how we logically think they relate to the time period but should come from our lived relationship with the gods. From an experiential perspective I haven't really connected with Maponos over the mid-winter period. He appeared in my life several years back one spring when I visited his altar in Ribchester. I worked with him on a rewrite of the story of his rescue and actually set it at Calan Mai to correspond with Culhwch and Olwen's wedding. I connected with him as a sun god honouring him as the sun crossing the skies in accord with the cycles of dawn, midday, dusk... until autumn then he kind of vanished. I sometimes hear his harp playing at the edge of things or see him in a ray of sunlight but haven't interacted with him much since. So I really can't say if celebrating his rebirth at the Winter Solstice feels right. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of folk who interact with him regularly.
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Post by potia on Nov 16, 2017 20:06:00 GMT -1
While I feel Maponos all year round for me it is in summer that He feels the strongest so I tend to link Him to the summer solstice and not the winter. I also feel that linking Him to the winter solstice just taps too much in the way of Christian imagery for me although I can see why some do link Him to the winter solstice.
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Devotions
Nov 18, 2017 18:45:04 GMT -1
via mobile
Post by gruffudd on Nov 18, 2017 18:45:04 GMT -1
I get what you mean about tapping into the christian imagery but remember it was pope Gregory who sent his bishops out with the sole purpose of keeping and maintaining the native holy days and sites but to rededicate them to the christian faith to ease conversion. There is so much information within catholicism that has been Christianised just waiting to be rediscovered. To discard it because it looks christian on the surface is discarding one of the best preserved repositories of history in my opinion (again, once you buff the christian polish away).
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