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Post by Lee on Nov 10, 2010 22:31:33 GMT -1
My overriding experience of spirituality is that all to often its a beautiful thing when solitary but quite negative for one reason or another when people come together. i know im picking up a singe point but im kinda busy at the moment. I think Brython kind of proves this point wrong. yes spirituality caan be beautiful when solitary, however the creativity and sharing and the way in which brython has built on that is far more beautiful than something i could have done on my own. heron's liturgy for instance is consistently inspiring and moving and something i can only produce on occassion.
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Post by redraven on Nov 11, 2010 6:16:41 GMT -1
Maybe its time for new ideas to structure an old faith? Funny you should mention this, keep an eye on CF next weekend. RR
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Post by Francis on Nov 11, 2010 11:14:27 GMT -1
Call me an old cynic, but I've been deceived (quite literally) into kneeling at peoples feet, so I'm not entirely convinced the root agenda is about equality. Equality is a very tricky concept. It's very easy to suggest equality as an ideal but the fact is people aren't equal in the sense of being the same. Most of the time when people theorise about equality as the ideal they assume that beneath the shaping effects of circumstance all people are fundamentally the same. But we're not. For some a human teacher that they respect is the only way - for others the opposite is true. It's easy to cynically misinterpret that relationship and to couch it in terms of one having 'power' over the other -but it can at best be a very complex relationship, and can be of huge value to the learning of both parties. Of course at worst it could be some well intentioned inexperienced dope learning how to give lots of money to PGC! Nor am I convinced that we need leaders or groups to tell us how to think and make us feel secure. I think we as a group demonstrate that very well. Many assumed LR was leader of this group but over the last year he's chosen not to contribute a great deal and whilst his learned input has been missed his absence hasn't made any difference to the dynamics of the group. I think his absence has in many ways demonstrated that we are that rare thing of a pagan group that isn't based around a leader - (I'm not trying to be provocative, but it's my belief that most pagan groups are based on the dynamic of either a charismatic leader, or a bunch of wets all of whom need constant positive affirmation for their random thoughts from a 'leader') I agree at times things need to be facilitated. Its also interesting how a culture can make people accountable. If putting oneself forward as a leader with privilege was deemed to be culturally unacceptable within a community, (a taboo or geis) then perhaps it could be self policing and still become a very functional, healthy collaboration. People with various skills would still be acknowledged and respected but there would be an expectation of the culture that they act with a sense of humility and the ego kept in check. Well we have no silly titles within Brython, but because our core group is very static we know each others strengths and weaknesses pretty well, and peoples roles become self defining. For example unlike many pagan groups there could be no suggestion here of a leader declaring a crony to be Chief Poet - for us Heron is our de facto Chief Poet, implicitly understood to be by all but with no vain, or need of exclusive attachment to the 'post'. If someone else wrote something wonderful tomorrow then into the pot it would go... My overriding experience of spirituality is that all to often its a beautiful thing when solitary but quite negative for one reason or another when people come together. I would hope that everyone here would agree with me that the CF get togethers we've had haven't been negative experiences? They've certainly never gone quite as planned "Tracker ". Perhaps we haven't yet worked out how to experience what we each do spiritually as individuals in our various landscapes when we come together as a group - but we know we have the potential, and we don't fake it in the meantime. I think many of us have had individual moments at our get togethers? Its natural for a certain type of person to want power if they sense there is power to be had and its so easy in spirituality to become an amature expert and use charisma to beguile. Strangely, so many people seem to want to be told what to do. To let others provide them with a false enlightenment. Again it's difficult. Human nature is flawed and we're not perfect. People are excited to know things before others in a group, and exhilarated by letting others know they know something that others don't. It makes them feel important, and that their contribution to the group is justified and acknowledged. It's the way some people start to feel power and importance within a group and others disenfranchised - it's how hierarchies creep into even the most well intentioned groups... Still others are petty enough to point the above out... We're not perfect, we don't claim to be, but we have our eyes open to many of the problems of human nature and ego, and I believe our model of contribution based on our individual strengths, rather than titles and hierarchies, can work. Maybe its time for new ideas to structure an old faith? Well Stefan you have plenty of experience of the pagan community and you've had some time out now with your thoughts. Can I invite you to explicitly state what conclusions you've come to, or what lines your thinking is following? It doesn't matter if you feel you've not resolved your thinking on the matter, just express it openly as they are with confidence that we won't shoot your thoughts down for the sake of it, but discuss it constructively with you. It wouldn't be perceived as arrogance for you to state them explicitly - you haven't come back and presented them as how people should think - you've been explicitly invited to offer your thoughts, so no need to just hint
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Post by Heron on Nov 11, 2010 19:52:38 GMT -1
Like Lee I"m 'kinda busy' at the moment but just want to jump in here both to say that I'm touched by the positive things said by Lee and Francis about my contribution to liturgy but also to agree with Francis that we don't have outright leaders in any field though, of course, if anyone emerges with particularly good contributions to the group ethos (and there are many here who do emerge with different excellent contributions) then their leadership in that respect is acknowledged.
I would also like to endorse Francis's comment about the value of our get togethers.
No chiefs here by virtue of who they are, or purport to be, but by virtue of what they do, and what we do collectively. I think we can say that we have created an excellent forum for Brythonic spirituality which has the potential to achieve much more than that.
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Post by potia on Nov 11, 2010 21:31:55 GMT -1
Lee and Francis have said it so much better than I could.
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Post by stefan on Nov 12, 2010 16:47:12 GMT -1
Firstly I wholeheartedly agree with you Francis. Brython is the only site I visit and for all the reasons you have detailed above. Also for its dedication to research and for keeping it real. This has always been a good place to be.
I grew so tired of sitting in a field with 200 hippies, I cannot connect to their culture and their fake love.
Its interesting how quickly Druidry became insignificant after leaving it all behind me. As I returned to what is largely an atheist world it soon became apparent just how unhealthy the movement actually is. I have not experienced any dramas, no fall outs, no bitching, no back stabbing, in fact its been a breath of fresh air. So much of it was truly poisonous.
So looking back I am forced to conclude that Druidry is corrupt. It is the priests who are worshiped by their flock. Also it cannot grow any bigger no matter how it would like to. Joe Public simply would not buy into its current set of guru's. They would be considered freaks and therefore it will remain this tiny fringe movement given hardly a second thought by mainstream society. Nobody really cares if Druidry is recognized or not.
So I have been trying to keep it real myself. I have been working with a group of pagans, refugees from the Druid world who have all moved on for similar reasons to myself. Again its interesting to note how many there are. We don't want to lead or be led. We are a collaboration and its works really well. Crass would have been proud of us. We have put on two events, a May Day and Halloween Ball. They have gone down fantastically well, beyond our wildest expectations. Open to the public with no agenda to fly the pagan flag but those in the know are well aware that it stands at the very core of everything. This is very modern, inclusive of everyday society, British as fish n chips but still resonating with our ancestors.
At another private level we are working around the concept of NBT 'Native British Traditions'. Hopefully we are enlightened enough to have some idea of the differences between Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age religions. We are drawn to the Neolithic and Bronze Age. My friend has a nature reserve with the most fantastic stone circle. Brython may raise a skeptical eyebrow here but its spirit energy is at least healthy if not authentic. Obviously I do not associate Druids in any way shape or form with stone circles and have found the latest discoveries in Wiltshire absolutely thrilling.
So things are very positive indeed at the moment. I have come to learn that the title Druid for me at least, was more of a burden than a blessing. However the learning curve as arduous as it was, was also crucial. I have learnt more than I could ever possibly convey and indeed every minute after all said and done was worth it. Therefore I can do no other than be grateful to Druidry for that. It has proved to be merely a chapter rather than the entire book.
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Post by arth_frown on Nov 12, 2010 19:30:12 GMT -1
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Post by stefan on Nov 13, 2010 15:39:49 GMT -1
Please remember these are only my opinions. Based on my personal experiences. I guess if things had been different my opinions would perhaps be still totally supportive of the Druid movement.
When I read that article and saw the pictures I thought how could our faith not polarize people? It would seen ether totally natural or completely barking mad.
My personal experience of the Druid community is that I feel I've been treated appallingly. Its made me crotchety, defensive and at times hostile. A bit like a dog that's been abused, it starts to bite. I felt like people I thought I could trust were far more devious than I realized.
I can be quite naive at times. I'm not used to people hugging me who don't like me. I don't like this expectation of hugging people I don't even know. For me to hug someone I've got to bloody well known them and trust them as a friend. Personal boundaries were almost none existent.
The unbelievable grief I got being judged by people I had never even met before, or by people with no sense of boundary getting all obsessed and into a piss if I did behave the way they wanted. I even had women bloody stalking me. But worst of all was people wanting to be famous for fuck all or using deception to manipulate people. That's the kind of things I experienced that eventually made me run to the hills.
I think I'm a pretty chilled out guy, but ye gads that movement at first really upset me and then made me very angry. Forgive for off loading it here, perhaps I had better stop.
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Post by redraven on Nov 13, 2010 16:41:08 GMT -1
I don't think there's an issue with you offloading here, Stefan, as I don't believe any one here is personally offended at anything you written. Reading your posts suggests to me a lot of inwardly directed anger with yourself for being "taken in" by these people. However, I've come to the conclusion that part of the "purpose" of life is to make mistakes, for it is only in the making of these mistakes that we move forward, perverse as that may appear to us at the time. Once this anger subsides, you may well find yourself better equipped to deal with situations better in the future. It is interesting how some people try to project their expectations through other people, a position that says more about them than the person to whom they are projecting and modern western culture sees a lot of this unrealistic projecting, for example, the rise of the "celebrity" culture and the flawed assumption that attainment of this title leads to both materialistic and spiritualistic fulfillment.
RR
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Post by Adam on Nov 13, 2010 17:18:11 GMT -1
I second RR's post, and I promise not to hug ya ;D (I don't dig the fake hugs either and I don't like a community that seems to set up rules of social intercourse that leave me feeling off balance all the time)
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Post by arth_frown on Nov 13, 2010 21:26:47 GMT -1
I know what you mean, Stefan. The whole druid thing brings out the worst in me. I don't even know why. Too many voices and I didn't know my place in it. There is a sense of relief being a outsider to it all
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Post by stefan on Nov 14, 2010 11:56:02 GMT -1
Thanks for being so understanding and wise words indeed RR. Your right I have been very angry with myself for being so feeble. I guess at the time I was not armed with the skills to deal with it. Classic passive/aggressive behaviour. Feel shat on, bottle it up and then kick off. It was a lot of unnecessary pressure to feed my egotistical fantasy of wanting to be a Druid. Like I said leaving it behind has taken a great weight off my shoulders.
I also have a confession to make. To try and fit in and please people I even tried to be a hippy for a while. To my terrible shame and embarrassment I even grew long hair and wore a home made knitted rainbow colored jumper. Thats how much I fell for the hippy Druid scene. I lost myself completely, my whole identity was based around trying to please others and be who they wanted as head of this fucked up hippy community I was involved with. Please laugh all you want, I shake my head in disbelief. But I'm all better now.
Interestingly Sid Rawl, 'King of the Hippies' and founder of Rainbow Camp has recently died. Odd really that TDN got into bed with Rainbow Camp. Ultimately not good for the movement at all, at least in my opinion. Mark Graham was the link. Sid was an interesting character from a counter culture perspective. I used to see him lose his temper now and then, it was quite amusing to see all these middle class hippies running around like startled rabbits every time he barked out a few orders. He wasn't all fake love.
But I do wonder about the bigger picture? Hopefully one day the hippies will no longer have a monopoly on this scene as it starts to mature. Then perhaps this PEACE and LOVE affair may be looked back on with a sense of embarrassment. I don't think the ancient Druids war council led to the ICENI engaging the Roman Legions with unconditional love and flower power.
Therefore I think its very inspiring that people are doing new things, Like Brython, distancing themselves from the baggage of the Neo Druid Movement. For perhaps Druidry and hippies will always be two peas in a pod?
Stefan
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 8, 2010 14:04:15 GMT -1
Personally I think you could swap "druid" and "hippy" in all these newspaper pieces quite comfortably and no-one would be any the wiser.
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