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Post by nellie on Aug 13, 2011 18:23:49 GMT -1
Hi Kevin, Personally I'm not sure I would 'pair' Lugus and Briganti, but that is just UPG. I also wouldn't equate Rosmerta with Briganti myself, I haven't researched as widely as I would like, but I don't see how a link might be drawn between the two? I wouldn't say Andraste is THE war goddess, but certainly the only information there is on Her shows Her to have a fearsome ware aspect. Her name doesn't necessarily indicate a war like nature, but the remaining information is so sparse it's hard to really say unless you're brave enough to ask Her yourself For the most part though, I'd say that most of those deities were probably worshipped in pre-Roman Britain.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 14, 2011 5:18:39 GMT -1
I also think it is possible that Grannus/Maponos may have been the son of Dea Matrona, who with Taranis, may have been at the head of the pantheon - just a theory, of course (as is a lot of what I wrote).
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Post by Lee on Aug 14, 2011 7:10:58 GMT -1
i think the Maponos as son of Matrona is a given (Mabon ap Modron).
some of the other associations i think are a given too. I agree with Nellie though about the Lugus-Briganti connection, i dont see it myself.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 14, 2011 8:39:11 GMT -1
I guess my Lugus and Briganti connection is just UPG - I just wanted an opinion on whether or not my connections were completely off the wall. Thank you for your input
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 15, 2011 4:33:23 GMT -1
I found the deity list on the Brython main page, and most of the ones I've listed were on there: www.dunbrython.org/the-gods.htmlSo my first question now would be, would these gods be included in that list as well?: Sucellos Nantosuelta Ogmios Andraste Grannus Sirona Belisama Belenos My second question would be, what do we know about these gods: Ambactonos Rigonemetis Vitionos Coventina
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Post by nellie on Aug 15, 2011 4:37:58 GMT -1
It's my personal feeling that some of the deities on your second list may have already appeared in your first Belenos and Belissima, and probably Sucellos I think of as being names of other deities. I would include Nantosuelta on my own list, and Ambactonus.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 15, 2011 4:56:46 GMT -1
Yeah, that totally makes sense. I see Maponos, Grannus, and Belenos as names or "forms" of the same god of light, much in the same way that I do other deities.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 15, 2011 5:09:56 GMT -1
That being said, Sucellos may indeed be a different form of Taranis, as they are both thundering, striking deities (albeit with different attributes).
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Post by Lee on Aug 15, 2011 8:47:39 GMT -1
Yep, they could well it into that list somewhere. I just dont think that mny of us have much in the way of personal interaction with them much - other than Deiniol and Grannus. In time, more can be added to the sit as we know more about them.
Ambactonos is the divine ploughman, don't know much.... only a little.
Ambactonos; the one who knows the skies, the stars and heavens and the passing of the seasons. The one who knows the movements of the chariot of the sun and the bull sons of Taranis, as well as he knows the furrow in the soil and the green things which grow. Ambactonos; he who knows how to till and to sow to caress the earth and tease life from it. He who knows when the dew will lie and the rains fall, to quicken the growth of the seed he has planted within Rigantona's embrace. Ambactonos; he who knows the face of the sun and how his gaze will fall. He who knows the edge of the blade that cuts at the harvest and when the two should meet. All of this knowledge and all of this skill, Ambactonos I ask for a draught.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 15, 2011 10:12:28 GMT -1
After further research, contemplation, and getting great feedback from people about the Brythonic pantheon, I've formed a few personal opinions about the remaining god names:
-Sucellos might be a form of Taranis -Nantosuelta might be a form of Matrona -Ogmios and Andraste are probably not consorts -Grannus & Belenos might be a forms of Maponos -Sirona and Belisama might be different forms, or sisters
As for:
Ambactonos Rigonemetis Vitionos Coventina
I want to learn more as time goes on....
As for the relationship between Lugos and the other gods, I think Epona/Rigatona or Rosmerta makes more sense as a possible consort than Brigantia, and I'm not entirely sure if Brigantia had a consort.
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Post by Lee on Aug 15, 2011 11:55:46 GMT -1
Lugus-Rosmerta is certainly attested in iconography so that works well, that said some recent developments might change that. the notion that Rosmerta is merely a Gaulish equivalent of who we know over here as Rigantona has occurred to me and nellie at least. Goddess-Sovereighnty as landscape alongside Lugus as embodied Kingship.
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Post by potia on Aug 15, 2011 12:22:51 GMT -1
Personally unless we know from inscriptions that particular deities were linked as consorts I don't see the need to link them up that way.
Rigantona as a sovereignty goddess for example would not have been confined to one consort but probably a series depending upon her choice and the needs of the specific area of land and people living on it.
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Post by Lee on Aug 15, 2011 12:55:31 GMT -1
where did you research this?
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Post by nellie on Aug 15, 2011 13:47:14 GMT -1
I am rather convinced of Deiniol's thoughts about Sucellos. So (this is just me and not Brython) AT THE MOMENT I'm thinking Sucellos/ Dagda/ Lugus/ possibly Cernunnos? might all be the same deity given different names by different groups of peoples and at different points in time depending on what the society most needed from the God at the time. I've just been reading Barry Cunliffe's 'Ancient Celts' and, if I've understood correctly, he is suggesting that the Dagda and Lugus may have evolved from the same Deity and when Lugh's worship was imported into Ireland the people thought He was a different god to the Dagda and thus ended up worshipping him seperately. The notion of Lugus=Dagda clears up a lot of confused threads for me if it is the case!
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Post by nellie on Aug 15, 2011 13:50:16 GMT -1
I agree with Potia that Rigantona/Rhiannon probably had multiple consorts. I think the same can also be said of Lugus too. (based on UPG and a bit of Odin cross referencing) I also agree with Potia that the deities need not be paired up.
Briganti for example I wouldn't pair with any other diety. I see Her as whole unto Herself not part of any sort of partnership.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 15, 2011 20:47:18 GMT -1
where did you research this? I've been reading articles online, reading books on the subject, and getting other peoples opinions. I formed these opinions based on that and some of my own UPG.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 15, 2011 20:51:05 GMT -1
I agree with Potia that Rigantona/Rhiannon probably had multiple consorts. I think the same can also be said of Lugus too. (based on UPG and a bit of Odin cross referencing) I also agree with Potia that the deities need not be paired up. Briganti for example I wouldn't pair with any other diety. I see Her as whole unto Herself not part of any sort of partnership. You make a good point that can be extended to all deities... they don't have to be paired up.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 15, 2011 21:00:32 GMT -1
I really appreciate the response I've been getting on this forum, and greatly enjoy the discourse we've been having.
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Post by kevinseguin on Aug 16, 2011 23:13:54 GMT -1
I deleted the original post by mistake, so here is the most updated version I have:
Brython List
Epona/Rigantona Brigantia Toutatis Lugus Gobannonos Ambactonos Maponos/Borvo/Grannus Rosmerta or Nantosuelta (?) Taranis Cernunnos Camulos/Cocidius/Belatucadros Matrona Coventina Rigonemetis Nemetona Vitionos Nodens
My suggested additions:
Belenos The Shining One
Belisama Summer Bright
Ogmios The Eloquent Lord
Andraste/Agrona The War Goddess (?)
Sucellos The Good Striker God of agriculture, forests and alcoholic drinks
Sirona The Lady of Night Goddess of the night, stars and possibly astronomy
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