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Post by Chad on Aug 12, 2014 5:19:15 GMT -1
As is well known, in the Irish legends of the Tuatha De Dannan, the Tuatha De Dannan replaced the Fomorians. I wonder if anything could be gleaned upon to posit whether something similar happened with the Brythonic gods. Are they one tribe, or perhaps several, (Plant Llyr and Plant Don, as stated in Y Mabinogi, although that leaves out some prominent Brythonic gods), that may be in place? Or are there any family connections (We can infer Matrona and Maponos with some safety, I believe) that can be made? What do you think? Further more who, if this is the case, were the beings ''evicted'' by the current gods?
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Post by redraven on Aug 12, 2014 5:54:43 GMT -1
"Evicted" is a strong word here. I don't see it as eviction but more of a case of practical evolution, so to speak.
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Post by Chad on Aug 12, 2014 6:20:26 GMT -1
Perhaps. I just wondered if there was any historical inkling as to if there was a transition in power from a group of beings, what or whomever they may be, to the Gods. I haven't found anything, and I suspect such information does not exist. I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were. I thank you for yours.
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Post by redraven on Aug 12, 2014 6:42:45 GMT -1
For a practical example, look at the evolution of the Normans, who were originally Vikings but settled and a process of assimilation occured within both parties.
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Post by Chad on Aug 12, 2014 8:22:43 GMT -1
Right. So, are you implying that as the Celts moved into these territories, bringing their deities with them, that the deities of the peoples before them were given other positions, when they once may have been deities?
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Post by redraven on Aug 12, 2014 11:12:19 GMT -1
I suspect there would be a certain amount of pragmatism in so much as I can see both deities being worshipped initially, but the ones who appeared to best serve the new communities, probably through accredited results, would have been "elevated" and the others maybe "demoted".
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Post by Chad on Aug 12, 2014 17:12:17 GMT -1
Right. I have suspected that as well.
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Post by Lee on Aug 13, 2014 20:49:15 GMT -1
Much of it would have been a case of adopting some of the new gods and not others whilst maintaining worship of the 'native' gods.
Most of the brythonic gods we know of fit relatively nicely into the Indo-European pantheon, so the 'Celts' culture migrated with some of them - though not a wholesale mass migration, mostly cultural, technological etc. What you do find is that the goddesses often dont fit so neatly and i have come across suggestions that the IE peoples when moving about and spreading their culture brought th gods but adopted the local goddesses which may well have been because the goddesses were seen as integral and linked to the land itself.
the Plant Don v Plant Llyr thing is a bit tricky, i can see that some of it may have come about as a result of Irish settlers coming over and settling in SW and NW Wales and bringing their gods and culture with them, so there is some cross over there and the stories reflect that. there is also the question of course whether all of the main protagonists in those myths are actually gods.
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Post by Chad on Aug 14, 2014 4:19:11 GMT -1
Agreed. That last sentence, though. I have been pondering that much myself. I see them as characters based off of deities, but I have doubts as to them being deities themselves. Not to mention, some that do not seem to have any parallel to Brythonic deities, e.g. Cerridwen. I like the stories, though. If someone else believes they are deities, I take no issue with that, of course. However, I cast strong doubt upon it, personally.
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Post by redraven on Aug 14, 2014 5:06:03 GMT -1
You have to remember it was common for each tribe to associate with a locality derived deity and I am not at all convinced that on a practical level, they held much to theological hierarchies of power (until conflict arose). So it may have been more of a case of deities having to "prove" themselves, much as people had to. This is a reason why I have had issues with the classical Druids being referred to as "priests", the context is entirely wrong because "priest" invokes a framework within the mind of a structured theological framework whereas my own opinion is that they were more like "negotiators" between people and deity and their theology was practical and experiential, hence why they refrained from writing because writing fixed the theology which then wouldn't have allowed for fluid interactions on a practical level.
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Post by Chad on Aug 14, 2014 9:10:32 GMT -1
I had actually asked some folks on another forum if they thought, that with the presence of deity cults, if they believed there were priests other than Druids. The replies were mixed. It would also depend on your definition of ''priest''.
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Post by redraven on Aug 14, 2014 9:32:52 GMT -1
Yes, it's the baggage that comes with "priest" that has always been a problem for me because it originates from a later period.
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Post by lorna on Aug 19, 2014 19:13:11 GMT -1
I have personally never come across anything in the Brythonic myths that suggests to me a replacement of a titan-like race such as the Formorians with deities such as the Tuatha. And I've never got the impression that the relationships between the houses of Don and Llyr map similar relations.
Although I recall that Bran and Branwen are referred to as giants. And that 'Cad Goddeu' depicts a battle between Gwydion and Arawn- trees enchanted by the cultured language of the magician-deity against the more primeval, chthonic forces of Annwn. To me this reflects a valuing of the rational over irrational, the science of language over the monstrous that does not speak for itself. Not Don and Llyr exactly but there is certainly conflict between this world and the otherworld. It may be possible to argue that it's the conflict and drama between this world and the otherworld that is the hinge of the Brythonic myths? For me this relationship seems more significant than that between the houses of Don and Llyr.
However I do believe it is possible to read some of the myths about Arthur, such as his defeat of giants and beings such as the Cath Palug as reflecting the conflict between earlier pagan beliefs and Christianity, and the triumph of the latter.
Like Red Raven even with Christianisation I think there are also processes of assimilation (as well as a bit of eviction- a splash of holy water here and there...) in play.
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Post by mabinogishan on Jan 22, 2016 23:33:05 GMT -1
There seem to be several ways to categorise the great names (to avoid pre-judging the deity issue). I should add my knowledge is the earlier native tales, not the later Norman influenced Romances.
Progenitors Don, Beli - these seem to have almost nothing about them additionally. That may reflect a natural need for a genealogy-obsessed people to have a root person as a beginning. Or they could be that elder race you are wondering about.
Gwynedd, Dyfed/ Deheubarth - the great North - South divide. This reflects Wales' distinctive geography which still to this day makes travel between north and south difficult. (I can get to Birmingham or London in the same time.) There were two law codes, two main dialects, and two major culture heroes (Lleu Llaw Gyffes and Pryderi). The economics of the two regions were and are very different.
Kings - Arawn, Hafgan, Matholwch, Bendigeidran, Vortigern, Arthur. Lludd. Queens - The three 'prif rieni' matriarchs Branwen, and arguably Rhiannon and Arianrhod (these two are not stated explicitly). Arawn's lady of Annwfn. The three Gwenhwyfars. Others from the Romances where I am less expert. Princes, princess - Pwyll, Pryderi, Manawydan, Cigfa, Math.
Giants - Bendigeidfran (Bran); the two giants who were keepers of the Cauldron, arguably Efnysien. Ysbdadden. (Not sure where you got Branwen as a giantess. Not unlikely as her two brothers were giants, but it's not explicit.) Also the fascinating tradition of Non, mother of Dewi Sant, whose birth labour left giantess claw marks in the rock of her sacred site!
Magicians - Arawn, perhaps the giants of the Cauldron, Lhuyd, Math, Gwydion. Mainly about shapeshifting, with or without magical tools. Possibly Branwen, Rhiannon, less explicitly.
Bards - Taliesin, Aneurin.
As for deities any of the above can be interpreted as deities, though there is nothing explicit to support the idea. There's Epona but whether she was originally British or Gaulish is unknown. The other Roman records and archaelogical bits and pieces give deities like Rosmerta, Lugh, Cernunnos, but they are all Continental rather than British.
Gwyn ap Nudd, Nudd and Ludd are on firmer ground. Lorna have you looked at the Lydney temple for connections? Lydney is the town with obvious derivation from Ludd; the temple is a hill landscape just outside the town, walking distance, with healing associations. It suggests Nudd to me (light and dark twins, and the hill) plus not so far from the famous Somerset Tor. Plus on this side of the Severn the landscape is very similar to the Somerset levels (mists of Avalon are very real, we have driven through them and have photos!). Finally not far from Lydney along the coast is the extraordinary Grey Hill (name!) which has a stone circle on top, and very suggestive place names around it - and the mighty Gwent forest behind.
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