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Post by Blackbird on Mar 6, 2005 11:01:31 GMT -1
Following on from the Druidry thread...
How does your cosmology work? Do you see the 'Quarters' being represented in Celtic cosmology? Or are the 'Three Realms of Earth, Sea and Sky more appropriate to your beliefs?
Personally, I like to work with both - the quarters being on the horizontal axis and the realms on the vertical. However, I see the quarters more as cardinal points than anything else - I don't assign elemental associations to them, neither do I 'call quarters' in ritual.
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Post by siaron on Mar 6, 2005 17:59:55 GMT -1
I like the image of a 'ball', encompassing everything.
I would say I recognize the three as being the 'worlds'-the world above, the world below, and this world (which is where I think Tolkein got the concept for 'Middle Earth'). I mean there is Annwn, the 'underworld' and various sky deities...anyway, that always felt 'right' to me, so that is how I envision it....though I recognize seven directions which also form the ball or all-emcompassing sphere--the cardinal compass points, earth, sky, and the center, which I won't name here. So, when I pray, I call on ancestors from the cardinal points, then the others in a spiral fashion.
For me, the 3 and 7 are more significant numbers too, rather than 4, so I guess I'm adding them together to make the 7.
Bendition,
Siaron
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 7, 2005 7:21:42 GMT -1
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Post by goldenhand on Mar 7, 2005 15:19:13 GMT -1
I quite like the Dumezil ideas, as long as they are not applied to the Gods, as some people do. It does seem to me that Celtic societies were tri-partate in nature, so it makes perfect sense to have that mirrored in a 'three worlds' thingy too.
After all, threes were the kind of fundamental number for the ancient Celts... far more so than fours.
Perhaps we'll never know if all Celtic peoples thought the same way about these things... but for me now, the three realms fits in much better with the rest of my spirituality and world view.
Blessings,
Angharad
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 9, 2005 7:48:10 GMT -1
Be careful when criticising Dumezil - you're likely to get jumped on by every Celtic Reconstructionist on the web (as I have found to my peril!) ;D
I agree, it is offensive to relegate the Gods to mere 'functions' of human society. I don't believe that they exist simply to run round after us lot.
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Post by blackwitch on Mar 11, 2005 18:39:00 GMT -1
Could someone tell me what is Dumezil?
bb Moira
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 12, 2005 10:32:38 GMT -1
Not what but who  Georges Dumezil, an anthropologist who proposed that all Indo-European societies were tripartate in nature - ie, that they had a three-part class system, a three-part cosmology, and three main 'functions' which are associated with the three classes or castes. He - or his followers, I'm not sure which, have also assigned these functions to the Gods. Something which I find quite problematic  |
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Post by goldenhand on Mar 15, 2005 6:46:33 GMT -1
I wasn't trying to criticise him - I've never actually read his works, anyway - I've only picked up on things from e-list discussions. I know you think Dumezil is outdated, but I think that his ideas hit the nail on the head, as far as Celtic societies go. It doesn't matter what current academia thinks - the man can still be right I suspect that these ideas were created from the standpoint that the Gods don't actually exist, or at least, not in the way that I conceive of them. But that doesn't mean that you can't find us in them, and adapt them to suit your own philosophy. Blessings, Angharad |
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Post by blackwitch on Mar 16, 2005 7:31:23 GMT -1
ok, ty Thogh i'm still confused by this whole conversation!!! bb Moira |
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Post by Midori on Mar 21, 2005 15:25:52 GMT -1
Three worlds and four quarters for me, and I see Time as a spiral also.
I see a multitude of triplicities throughout Druidry, including the three drops of inspiration from the Cauldron. I also see four in the chase of Gwion Bach, hare/houndbitch (fire) salmon/otterbitch (water) sparrow/hawk (air) wheatgrain/ black hen (earth).
BB Midori
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 22, 2005 6:57:51 GMT -1
That's interesting, I'd not thought of the Gwion story in that way before. On another thread, we were talking about the similarities between the Gwion story and the song The Twa Magicians. I was reading up on the song yesterday, and found a suggestion that the song commemorated a kind of ritual combat/flirting/ between men and women that may have been seasonal. Yes, I know, it does sound like one of those hackneyed old 'Golden Bough' type theories... but I quite liked it for all that, just as a personal explanation of the song. It also adds personal meaning for me to the Taliesin story, with Cerridwen being in a Cailleach type role, a Winter Hag who births the summer season of the bright child. Or maybe I've just gone soft?!  Working on the song at the moment, anyway, should have a nice arrangement done soon. |
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Post by sulla on Mar 22, 2005 7:33:14 GMT -1
I use the three realms of Land, Sea and Sky, mainly because from what I understand, the ancient Celts were unaware of the compass points that we refer to today. As a result, I don't call the quarters in ritual.
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Post by branynos on Mar 22, 2005 8:59:03 GMT -1
I use the three realms of Land, Sea and Sky, mainly because from what I understand, the ancient Celts were unaware of the compass points that we refer to today. As a result, I don't call the quarters in ritual. Out of interest how do you create sacred space, if you do? I still use the quarters when I'm involved in a group ritual (though I opt for air/sky if I'm asked to call a specific one) I'm still exploring how to do it when working solo. |
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Post by sulla on Mar 22, 2005 11:51:48 GMT -1
Out of interest how do you create sacred space, if you do? I don't purposely create sacred space as I work on the premise that all space is sacred. |
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Post by branynos on Mar 22, 2005 13:37:38 GMT -1
I don't purposely create sacred space as I work on the premise that all space is sacred. I'm supposed to work on that premise, but early training kicks in and I want to make "this little bit of space just a wee bit more sacred for a wee while" It surprises me how hard it is to shake that early training sometimes. Though from the Wicca flavoured circle casting I was taught I do like the concept of being 'between the worlds' when I work. Rather than the idea of making a defendable space that I think comes from ceremonial magic |
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Post by sulla on Mar 22, 2005 13:42:55 GMT -1
I'm supposed to work on that premise, but early training kicks in and I want to make "this little bit of space just a wee bit more sacred for a wee while" I know what you mean, it is difficult at times, old habits die hard, ;D |
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 22, 2005 14:52:13 GMT -1
Good question re sacred space.
Like you, Sulla, I tend to work on the principle that all space is sacred. In addition, as so much of my practice is about relationships - with the Gods, but also largely with spirits of place - I don't want to cut myself off from the wider world when I'm doing things.
However, I think that certain places have a liminality, or a sacredness of their own, particularly if it is a place which you only visit for ritual purposes. A permanent shrine could have this aspect to it, as could a grove of trees.
In addition, I often use liminal times of day - dawn and twilight... or even midnight and noon.
Or I can take myself off into 'other' places - without having to delineate space around me to do that.
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Post by kern on Mar 28, 2005 14:11:49 GMT -1
Great posts everyone,but I still have a question.
How do you use the 3 realms in ritual?
I believe all space is sacred also,but that places can be defiled and therefore need cleansing,but that once the space is cleansed it remains that way unless it is defiled again.(Things that can defile an area,fighting or murder).
As for casting a circle and calling the quarters,I dont do this unless its for magick like spells etc.Then I merley ask the quardians of North,East,South and West to watchover and protect me form harm.And if I use an altar its placed in the west not the north or east like Wiccans do.I chose west because of a Celtic belief that the land of the dead resides there.
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 28, 2005 17:44:34 GMT -1
I see the Three Worlds as the fundamental make-up of our world and the Otherworlds. But that isn't necessarily something that needs to become part of a ritual.
I might honour the Three Worlds and their inhabitants in song or prayer... perhaps saying something like "Gods of earth, sea and sky, I honour you with this offering..."
See, the way I see it is that when you are working inside a circle (which I also only do rarely), because you are working outside of time and space, you do need to orient yourself, to impose some kind of declared structure within the place you are working. So if I was in a circle, it would be necessary for me to place earth, sea and sky, and north, south, east and west for myself - to set up that no-space that I am working in.
But as I work in 'normal' (lol!) spaces, I know where the sky is, where east is. So I don't feel the need to 'declare' that during my working.
I like the idea of an altar in the West. Do you work with ancestral spirits in ritual? The ancestral links of blood and bone are very important to me.
About the defiling of space... I would personalise that... and say that acts such as murder upset all the beings that live in a locality, seen and unseen. And there may also be spirits of the departed in that place, or some memory of the event for a long while after.
Cleansing wouldn't necessarily be the approach I would take, though. All things have a memory, and wiping the slate clean doesn't seem right to me. Such things, terrible as they are, become part of the fabric of a place, and that is important too.
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