Lugh and Lleu (and Llefelys?)

[Blackbird]

Whether or not the tales of the Plant Don can be equated with the tales of the Tuatha de Danaan will always be a matter for debate.

As a polytheist, I acknowledge the individuality of the Gods - however, I am well aware that some Gods have many different titles and that on occasion, two similar Gods might be the same God. Out of respect, I prefer to consider all Gods to be individuals - feeling this to be more polite - unless I am completely satisfied otherwise.

Having rambled on for a bit, the question is this: Are Lugh and Lleu the same God? I'm interested in mythological lore and also personal experiences about this.

Both are described as being many-skilled.
Both are fostered to one who teaches them these skills - in Lugh's case, Manannan, in Lleu's case, Gwydion.
Both are betrayed by their wives, who have affairs with other handsome men (more love triangles...).

Lleu is betrayed by Blodeuwedd, who conspires with her lover Gronw to kill Lleu. Eventually, Lleu kills Gronw with his spear.

Lugh is betrayed by Nás and her lover Cearmhaid Milbheal. Lugh wounds Cearmhaid with his spear - but he doesn't die. Instead, he is nursed back to health by his father, the Dagda.

It has also been suggested that the character Llefelys is Lleu by another name. It is interesting to re-read the story in the light of this theory - Llefelys certainly fits Lleu's wise and skilfull character.

What think you all?

[branynos]

I don't think Lleu is a sun god. Not absolutely sure what he is, but I find it interesting that his name can be found in moon (Lleuad) rather than sun.

[siaron]

Well, for what it's worth, I never thought they weren't based on the same 'character'. I think that there was so much back and forth exchange between Ireland and Wales that the story likely had the same basis but evolved separately, much like the languages have (Welsh to Cornish to Breton, for example).

I always had a natural inclination to think that the moon represented the feminine...I mean, look at women's menstrual cycles. Clearly a moon relationship. So Lleu being a lunar deity doesn't twig with me (though your entymology is right on, Branynos). I always equated Lleu/Llew with the Lion (which has solar symbology).

[Blackbird]

It was the Victorians, I think, who first made a connection between Lleu and the sun. I don't make that connection personally - I see him as the craftsman par excellence. His strength lies in his skill and intelligence.

[branynos]

Siaron said:

I always had a natural inclination to think that the moon represented the feminine...I mean, look at women's menstrual cycles. Clearly a moon relationship. So Lleu being a lunar deity doesn't twig with me (though your entymology is right on, Branynos). I always equated Lleu/Llew with the Lion (which has solar symbology).

I don't think Lleu is a moon god either , just that the entymology suggests a softer light than that of the sun, and that if Lleu was a sun god the last place I'd expect to find traces of his name was in the moon.

Isn't Llefelys a son of Beli and Arianrhod by at least one triad Beli's daughter? Which would give them a family connection.

I do agree with Blackbird that what we know about him is he's many skilled, I don't call on him a lot but when I do its the skills element I focus on rather than any sun or growth (as in a grain god) element.

[siaron]

Blackbird said:

It was the Victorians, I think, who first made a connection between Lleu and the sun. I don't make that connection personally - I see him as the craftsman par excellence. His strength lies in his skill and intelligence.

Thanks Blackbird. I never looked too far into the Lion bit, but it did seem disjointed given the time/geography of Lleu/Llew. Branynos' connection to Beli makes much more sense for the solar connection.

[goldenhand]

I remember that the 'lion' thing comes from a Victorian mistranslation or confusion with Llew. I am sure that it doesn't go back any further than that. Shouldn't Lleu be pronounced like 'Llie' rather than 'Llew'?

Blessings,

Angharad

[Brochfael]

This is an area of Cymraeg pronounciation I am somewhat unsure of but I think Lleu should be pronounced to rhyme with the English word play.

[Midori]

That's the understanding I have also, Brochfael.

BB Midori

[Blackbird]

I would say it as 'llai'. But then my language skills leave much to be desired

Definitely not 'looh'. It's Lady Charlotte Guest who wrongly gives his name as 'Llew'. No idea why.

[blackwitch]

pls can somebody tell me where i can find info about lugh and lleu? i have heard of lughnasadh.

bb moira

[Brochfael]

If you haven't already got a copy of teh Mabinogion I would reccommend the Gwyn and Thomas Jones translation.

As for the Irish material I have a condensed book of Irish myth By Maire Heaney called "the ninth wave" it's OK but condensed.

[morgaine]

Hmmm...

There may be many who would disagree, but here is my view of it:

I think we have many threads here... First there is Treprain Law, stronghold of Lleu/Ludd/Nodens, which lies outside Caer Eidyn (Edinburgh), a Brythonic area and one of the last bastions of paganism in what we now call Scotland. Lleus (both divine and kingly) have much lore here and are linked to Ludd (brother to Llefelys) and Nodens.

Perhaps some of the confusion comes from these interwoven associations?...

As to whether Lleu and Lugh are the same or different deities, I can only say that they certainly feel different when one meets them face to face; but as to how their stories end, I would look to the methods of the Bards and the nature of their audiences.

The ancient audience was very familiar with the story cycles of the Gods, which left the Bards free to focus each retelling on story aspects specifically pertaining to their audience's locality, situation (politics), and time. Since local familiarity would have made any story deviations immediately apparent, the Bards remained free to sing the stories in whatever way best served the point they wished to make (a practice continued into Elizabethan times).

Now... If we consider the "Holly and Oak King" aspect of Lleu and Gronw's story, then the closing lines of the Mab become rather ominous -- and the Bards' intentions are somewhat revealed. For whether Lleu is solar, lunar, or both, if his periodic overthrow is necessary to keeping a natural balance, then something has gone terribly wrong by the story's end.

This may seem a surprise; but what is the central theme of the Mab, if not the events which herald the coming of the Wasteland and the method of its healing?...

Which brings us back to Treprain Law.

The region (Lothian) was occupied by a Tribe called the Votadini (originally, Gautodin or Gododdin), who are remembered in a poem of Aneirin's called "The Battle of the Trees" -- a struggle which, if nothing else, completely redefined royal lineages and, subsequently, the Ogham -- all of which brings us straight back to The Mab, for among those named in the battle are Bran, Arawn, and Gwydion...

It also brings us round to Arthur -- but that is another tale... We have already quite a few threads here and we've only scratched the surface -- which, I think, is why the issue seems so confusing!

So... Having added considerably to the confusion, I now rest silent, but I look forward with great interest to your responses!

Bendithion,
Morgaine

[Brochfael]

The hillfort of Traprain Law (I believe this spelling is correct) is indeed one of the centres of the ancient kingdom of the Gododdin.

Gododdin is the 6th century (early Welsh) rendition of an ancient British name latinised by the Romans as "Votadini" in about the 1st century AD

Lady Charlotte's mistakes of wich the transposition of Lleu to Llew is but one result from the fact that she learned modern Welsh to enable her to give the "poor benighted Welsh People" a historic literature of which they could be proud. Having learned the language from a learned friend, she set about translating the old texts only to find she couldn't since they were in mediaeval Welsh not modern Welsh. She therefore prevailed on the said learned friend to translate the texts into modern Welsh so she could then translate them into English.

With two layers of translation the opportunity for mistakes to creep in obviously multiplies hence Lleu (Fair/pale or possibly bright) changes to Llew (Lion).

I ma unsure if Lothian is really the last Bastion of Brythonic paganism. I haven't read the Vita Merlini which is probably a prime contender to be a chronicle of it's last gasp. But if Gwenddoleu (Notice the appearance of leu at the end of the name) was the last pagan or part pagan British king it would seem that he may have been based nearer Carlisle than Edinburgh. Arthuret (probably the site of the battle of Ardderyd in which Myrddin's family and Gwenddoleu were killed) is certainly nearer Carlisle than Edinburgh.

I'm still open to the idea of Lleu as a lunar figure to Beli's solar one.

[morgaine]

Thank you for your thoughtful response...

And my apologies if I misspelled the hill fort's name. I have seen it spelled both ways and without living in the area it is difficult to be sure whether one or both are correct. I assume you are a native of the area, and so my thanks for your clarification.

I do not read the Lady Guest, and so cannot speak to the issues you raise with her work. I work with our own oral lore with verification from sources that have gone back for direct translation -- and not to reinterpret or retranslate the translations of others.

I make no claim for Lleu being "the last" or "the only"... I only say that he was one of the last strongholds of pagandom in that area. Our own lore tells us that when his rule failed, the Ninefold Sisterhood that thrived there was forced out and relocated to Caer Eidyn (Edinburgh), whence came its association as one of Morgen LeFay's (LaFey) three domiciles.

Nor can I speak much of the Arthurian, for the old lore is much changed there and I have not closely studied them. The Arthurian period is after the age on which my own interest is focused.

As for the Gododdin... its original meaning lies buried still within it; for while many scholars claim it is a battle between Britons and Ango-Saxons, few will claim that Bran, Arawn, or Gywdion are so, and yet they are on opposing sides of the battle... No doubt a scribal error...

As for the "correspondences" of the deities, I am afraid I cannot speak to that either, as in our own tradition the deities are all whole and complete in and of themselves. Thus they are all solar, lunar, stellar, etc. and may show these aspects as they will within the context of the natural cycle.

These are my perceptions of these matters from my own little crow's nest. Again, thank you for sharing --

Bendithion,
Morgaine

[Brochfael]

> apologies if I misspelled the hill fort's name.

After re-reading my post, I hope I didn't come across to dogmatic there ;D

> I do not read the Lady Guest, and so cannot speak to the issues you raise with her work.

I haven't read the lady guest translation either but I did attend a talk by Ron Hutton on the origins of the Mabinogion.

> I work with our own oral lore with verification from sources that have gone back for direct translation -- and not to reinterpret or retranslate the translations of others.

Now you've really piqued my curiosity here. Most Welsh families would have been introduced to ancient Welsh Literature by Lady Charlotte and Iolo Morgannwg. Is this a family tradition? If so, whereabouts does the family originate?

> I make no claim for Lleu being "the last" or "the only"... I only say that he was one of the last strongholds of pagandom in that area.

Could this be the same character as Gwenddoleu whom Geoffrey of Monmouth mentions in his "vita Merlini" who was king to Myrddin's Bard/Druid/Advisor. This story is usually dated to about 600ad, about 100 years after Arthur.

> Our own lore tells us that when his rule failed, the Ninefold Sisterhood that thrived there was forced out and relocated to Caer Eidyn (Edinburgh), whence came its association as one of Morgen LeFay's (LaFey) three domiciles.

Any more details?

> Nor can I speak much of the Arthurian, for the old lore is much changed there and I have not closely studied them. The Arthurian period is after the age on which my own interest is focused.

Ditto but I'm trying to learn more about it. The specialists in the UK are Britannia, run by Dan Shadrake. Their website is at www.durolitum.co.uk I think.

> As for the Gododdin... its original meaning lies buried still within it; for while many scholars claim it is a battle between Britons and Ango-Saxons, few will claim that Bran, Arawn, or Gywdion are so, and yet they are on opposing sides of the battle... No doubt a scribal error...

I sense a little confusion creeping in here.
It has been a while since I last read the Gododdin poem by Aneirin but I don't recall Bran Arawn or Gwydion in it. They do however feature in the Cad Goddeu (battle of the trees) attributed to Taliesin. This poem tells not of a battle between the warriors of the Gododdin and The Berenician Angles (as the Gododdin is) but of the living championed by Gwair (usually described as another name for Gwydion) against the armies of Arawn championed by Bran of the Branches who is probably not the same character as Bendigeidfran in the second Branch of the Mabinogi.

> As for the "correspondences" of the deities, I am afraid I cannot speak to that either, as in our own tradition the deities are all whole and complete in and of themselves. Thus they are all solar, lunar, stellar, etc. and may show these aspects as they will within the context of the natural cycle.

I would suggest that to understand how the many god names from Irish, British and Gallic sources relate, you need to employ a sort of Orwellian Doublethink whereby you can accept them as distinct individuals but also as different local names for what on some level is the same deity.

Hope this helps
Brochfael the smelly badger

[morgaine]

Greetings, again!... I am more pressed for time today, but wished to respond as best I may. My time is often not my own, so please forgive me if I seem brief. I will come back to say more as my duties allow...

>After re-reading my post, I hope I didn't come across to dogmatic there <

Not at all. Names are very important. When you change a name, you change its energetic resonance, which effects the nature of one's experience, so I try to get names as "right" as possible. Where there are many variations, I work with each to get a sense of how they are different, what they evoke before I use them, and some I may never use if they don't feel right to me!

>I haven't read the lady guest translation either but I did attend a talk by Ron Hutton on the origins of the Mabinogion.<

Yes, Ron Hutton. I corresponded with him for awhile several years ago. We'd hoped to meet and do some site exploring, but our schedules did not allow. We do not agree on all points of interpretation, but that's a small matter. There is no doubt that he's a very bright fellow!

>(oral lore) Now you've really piqued my curiosity here. Most Welsh families would have been introduced to ancient Welsh Literature by Lady Charlotte and Iolo Morgannwg. Is this a family tradition? If so, whereabouts does the family originate?<

The tradition in which I work once covered many lands. Today, few hereditary practitioners remain and all must keep their work private or risk being outcast in their own communities. For us, hereditaries must not nly have blood lineage, but also be able to document continuing practice stretching far back in time.

We currently have a very few verified hereditary families in North Wales, Eastern Scotland, Southwest Britain, Southeast Ireland and Brittany. Our Tradition is also passed down through teaching lineage which, frankly, has better preserved the Tradition, since it tends to be mobile and can move away from trouble easier than can families, who must often simply adapt. Thus you have many Christian saints incorporated into most of the irish families, since it seemed necessary for them to survive and preserve anything of their traditional ways... While we understand this, our own Order chooses not to draw on such lore. We prefer to stay simple and closer to the original form.

>(re:Lleu) Could this be the same character as Gwenddoleu whom Geoffrey of Monmouth mentions in his "vita Merlini" who was king to Myrddin's Bard/Druid/Advisor. This story is usually dated to about 600ad, about 100 years after Arthur.

In truth, I do not know. As I mention, the Arthurian period is not my strong suit... I would expect that the origin of associations with Lludd and Nodens actually far predates the time of Arthur.

> (Re: Ninefold Sisterhood / Caer Eidyn (Edinburgh) / Morgen LeFay's three domiciles) Any more details?

There are many, but for what lies outside of our own lore, I would browse a book called: The Quest for the Nine Maidens, by Stuart McHardy. It is very pertinent to the period (adn peoples/cultures) with which these Forums are most concerned. Although he is not famous, his observations are excellent and he has drawn together much that has lain quiet for many centuries. It is definately worth reading!

> (Re: Arthur) Ditto but I'm trying to learn more about it. The specialists in the UK are Britannia, run by Dan Shadrake. Their website is at www.durolitum.co.uk I think.<

Thank you! The University of Rochester also has its own Camelot project website, which is not bad... though as it is not my main interest, I'm afraid I don't have it bookmarked...

> (Re: Gododdin) I sense a little confusion creeping in here. It has been a while since I last read the Gododdin poem by Aneirin but I don't recall Bran Arawn or Gwydion in it. They do however feature in the Cad Goddeu (battle of the trees) attributed to Taliesin. This poem tells not of a battle between the warriors of the Gododdin and The Berenician Angles (as the Gododdin is) but of the living championed by Gwair (usually described as another name for Gwydion) against the armies of Arawn championed by Bran of the Branches who is probably not the same character as Bendigeidfran in the second Branch of the Mabinogi.<

Hmmm... The Battle of the Trees was fought by the Gododdin. The Goddeu is the area in which they lived, west of Edinburgh. And there is confusion even in the scholarly community about whether these two poems are actually about the same ancient battle, recast to suit a more "modern" audience, or whether they refer to two separate battles. I was thinking of all of these issues when I wrote my post, so now I've added to the confusion, by misattributing the Battle of the Trees! My sincere apologies to the Forum and to Taliesin...

> (Re: "correspondences" of deities) I would suggest that to understand how the many god names from Irish, British and Gallic sources relate, you need to employ a sort of Orwellian Doublethink whereby you can accept them as distinct individuals but also as different local names for what on some level is the same deity.<

I am not sure what would be gained by this double-think... I can appreciate that such deities may be defined as "local manifestations of one deity" to others, but it would be stepping out of my truth to define them so for myself. In my own experience, this would be no more true that to say that two Italians are the same person with different local names, because they are both Italian!...

As far as I know, others in our Order have had the same experience. However, this does not mean we think that others are "wrong." Only that this is not true for us, within the age and archetype of Avalon with which we work.

Thank you for your response and I look forward to sharing with you!

Bendithion

Morgaine

[Lee]

how about a spanner in the works?

something i came across a while ago was looking at the names of the gods and utilising middle welsh to translate them. so for instance, Arianrhod doesnt mean silver wheel - that would be Rhodarian- as it appears in the original texts as 'Aranrhot' it means rounded hill/mound - an earth goddess.

the alternative i foudn for Lleu llaw gyffes in middle welsh would mean something along the lines of "Of the same height as a fair young boy."

so this as the son of an earth goddess and gwydion (who was apparently a solar god) - would make lleu a corn god. he was helped by his father the sun to get eveything he needs from his mother the earth.

his killing, transformation and eventual restoration by his father the sun do kind of reflect the corn cycle.

also interesting to notw the stone with the hole in left over from his killing of Goronwy wuld look like a millstone

;D

[Lee]

i cant find who menioned it but talking of Dylan too. the interpretation i heard had him as a fish god. he swims better than any fish and was speared while swimming, as fish would be an important commodity to our ancesotrs this seems a good possibility.

there is an article:

Keefer, Sarah Larratt 'The Lost Tale of Dylan in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi' Studia Celtica 24-25 (1989-1990) pp. 26-37. (Republished in Sullivan (1996) op. cit. pp.79-98)


fortunately i will have the Sullivan book in a week or two and will be (naughtily) be pillaging and good essays in it to keep. will etl you know if its any good and can see about producing some scans to send people who are interested.

lee