CAMLANN

[Heron]

I was out walking in Cwm Cerist near Dinas Mawddwy in Southern Snowdonia this weekend. After descending from a stimulating climb up the Maesglase crags I went into local tourist attraction, an old woollen mill, for some rereshments. Attached to this is an enclosed garden area called 'Camlann' and a standing stone has been erected here with the inscription 'Er Cof am Arthur'. Intrigued I found in the shop a booklet writen by a local druid called Laurence Main whose name I already knew as the author of several walking guides. The booklet advances the theory that Cwm Cerist was the site of the Battle of Camlann and that the river had run with the blood of Arthur after the battle. Now I know that the supposed site of this battle is disputed, and thinking of Arthur as an historical personage is probably not a very fruitful way to explore the legends and possibly older myths of a figure who may have had his origins in the cult of a bear goddess in at least one theory. Laurence Main's authority for his ascription of this place is not one that would impress scholars anyway as he claims to have a friend who is a reincarnation of Bedwyr and to have had a conversation through him with Arthur on the telephone. But I wonder if anyone else has come across this location in an Arthurian context?

Cerist is, anyway, a beautiful river valley and I pay homage to the purity of her crystal waters.

[Craig]

Cerist is, as you say, a most beautiful location. The pass above is the gateway to the Mawddach, and I always begin feel at home as I pass through the village and into the valley beyond.

There are a lot of local references to Arthur, possibly because the whole area of Merioneth is rich with Mabinogion sites.

I don't think we will ever find the true locations for the underlying/original stories of what became the Arthurian Romances, nor do I think it important that we do. It is what the tales teach us that is important.

Blessings,

[littleraven]

craig said:

It is what the tales teach us that is important.

That of course is the most significant thing, much more important than the site itself in many respects. Although being able to actually visit the sites themselves and pay respects where the events happened is special in itself.

I don't recall this particular theory myself, but the interesting thing about these ideas is they rarely consider the military aspects of the events. When such important battles occur, they tend to define the limits of expansion of the invading force. If the invader is too far inside the enemy territory their supply lines are severly stretched and easily severed, so the army moves to the next significantly strategic point, forcing battle from the enemy.

I see this has an interesting topology, controllling the meeting point of three valleys and as such would qualify as a valuable startegic point. How far is the place from the centres of Sais settlement at this time? I would make a guess it would have been around 50 - 60 miles? A very long way for an army at this time.

[Francis]

Hi Heron

Cwm Cerist is one of the places I've heard people talk of as the site of The Battle of Camlann. The story continues then that Arthur went North after the battle to Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon) (...with the old name mixing the legends and period of Arthur even more so..) where he was mortally wounded in a hail of arrows by an ambush of his foes, who had fled the scene of the battle earlier in the day and were hiding hidden in the rocks when Arthur happened by. The place is still called Bwlch Saethau- which means 'Pass of the Arrows'.

Arthur was then taken to Anglessey to the site that now has Penmon Priory on it to be tended by the maidens. Derfel and Dogged who carried him there then returned south Derfel to near Bala - (Llandderfel) and Dogged to near Maenan at Llanddogged - although other stories ascribe that name to be of a different personage who was a King himself.

I'm still looking forward to disagreeing with Craig at some point , but I again I agree with him that the true locations are lost, and that it probably isn't that important that we do discover them - but when a place has been imbued with one and a half millenia of legend, then that legend is truly a part of that place- and I'm sure that if the legends are ever lost from human knowledge, then no-one will be able relate to that place in the same way again.

Stephen

[Heron]

Thanks for your responses on this. A few further thoughts in response:

I agree Craig that if Arthur was an earlier mythological character , it's what the tales tell us about this character that is important, though that makes any suggestion that there actually was a character of this name in the sixth century unlikely.

Dates for the battle of Camlann have been given in early sources as either 537 or 542. So, in response to your question Littleraven, at no time before the Norman invasion would this area have been disputed territory, which makes the liklihood of the two other sites for the battle: Camboglanna on Hadrian's Wall and Camelford in Cornwall more likely if we see it as a battle between Celts and Sais. But the stories relate that this was an internal feud between Arthur and his son by Morgana La Fay. This would make Cornwall a more likely location as Culhwch and Olwen specifically locates Arthur's home territory as being in Cornwall.

Francis your story of the maidens and the connections with North Wales may be a variant of the story of the maidens who carried Arthur off to Avalon in the later romances. Derfel is in fact the name of a warrior who is said to have fallen with Arthur at Camlann. There was a statue of him at Llandderfel which was apparently removed in 1538 because of the 'undue deference' given to it by the common people.

I share the general feeling expressed here that the actual places mentioned in these stories (often very specific in the earlier ones, and invariably more vague in the later romances) are worth visiting. That is why I wanted to know of any references to Cwm Cerist in the early stories, but I can find none.

[littleraven]

heron said:

Dates for the battle of Camlann have been given in early sources as either 537 or 542. So, in response to your question Littleraven, at no time before the Norman invasion would this area have been disputed territory, which makes the liklihood of the two other sites for the battle: Camboglanna on Hadrian's Wall and Camelford in Cornwall more likely if we see it as a battle between Celts and Sais. But the stories relate that this was an internal feud between Arthur and his half-brother Medrawd. This would make Cornwall a more likely location as Culhwch and Olwen specifically locates Arthur's home territory as being in Cornwall.

And considering the fondness of our ancestors for fighting amongst themselves whilst the wolf watches through the letterbox, that has to be a major consideration.

I can't recall the make-up of the army of Medrawd, and I havn't had time to look it up. I was thinking along the lines of Adminius son of Cunobelinus and earlier, Mandubracius, who go to the enemy attempting to use them as weapons for their own pursuit of power.

The differing locations also helps with the idea that 'Arthur' is not so much a name as a title, much like 'Dux'.

[Heron]

Than the kynge gate his speare in bothe hys hondis, and ran towarde sir Mordred, ctyyng saying,
"Traytoure, now ys thy dethe-day come!"
And whan sir Mordred saw kynge Arthur he ran untyll hym with hys swerde drawyn in hys honde, and there kyng Arthur smote sir Mordred undir the shylde, with the foyne of hys speare, thorowoute the body more than a fadom. And whan sir Mordred felte that he had hys dethys wounde he threste hymselff with the myght that he had upp to the burre of kynge Arthurs spere .....

... Yet some men say in many partys ... that kynge Arthur ys nat dede ...

Yet I woll nat say that hit shal be so, but rather I wolde say: here in thys worlde he chaunged hys lyff. And many men say that there ys wrytten uppon the tumbe thys:

Hic Iacet Arthurus, Rex Quondam Rexque Futurus

[poseidia]

in the 'Life of Merlin', in a boat captained by Barinthus who was accompanied by Taliesin, Arthur was taken to the Isle of Apples and was left there in the care of Morgan. He is described as a skilful pilot as the waters to Ynys Afallwch were dangerous. There is a river Gamlan in Snowdonia and I believe that is the Camlan referred to. The island of apples is, of course, Bardsey Island across the treacherous waters of Cardigan Bay. Interesting that a very rare form of ancient apple was recently found there. It is amazing because it is the only apple known to remain blight free. Check out...
www.bardsey.org/english/subs/apples.htm

[Craig]

Hi guys,

I have been thinking about Heron & LR' assumption given below:

heron said:

Dates for the battle of Camlann have been given in early sources as either 537 or 542. So, in response to your question Littleraven, at no time before the Norman invasion would this area have been disputed territory... snip

This is true if we consider the 'enemy' to have been Sais/Saecsen. However, this area was a gateway between Powys and Gwynedd. These two kingdoms were seldom friendly except when facing an external threat.

The pass is an ancient drover's way and thus a known and open trade route. It would be a good place to march an army, with all its baggage, through or to return with cattle and plunder.

What say you?

[Craig]

Thanks for the link Poseida - fascinating stuff. I wonder if they will sell the apple once it has been propagated successfully?

[Francis]

I take the "Bardsey Apple" marketing machine with a bit of salt!

It isn't as disease free as is claimed - I have one myself and had problems with both scab and mildew last year.

Just how far back it's origins go is very debatable, and some of the same company's recent other "special finds" actually start to make me suspect each of their stories to be slightly less credible. At best I think a case of wild wishful thinking (but hey could be personal revelation!), at worse cynical marketing...

[Heron]

craig said:

This is true if we consider the 'enemy' to have been Sais/Saecsen. However, this area was a gateway between Powys and Gwynedd. These two kingdoms were seldom friendly except when facing an external threat.

The pass is an ancient drover's way and thus a known and open trade route. It would be a good place to march an army, with all its baggage, through or to return with cattle and plunder.

What say you?

There could certainly have been such local conflict. But, to go back to the original point, would we then be saying that the death of Arthur was the result of a skirmish between Powys and Gwynedd? Or even to see Maelgwn Gwynedd as Arthur [ Maglocunus, Draig yr Ynys ] - though Gildas would surely have made the connection!

[Heron]

francis said:

I take the "Bardsey Apple" marketing machine with a bit of salt!

It isn't as disease free as is claimed - I have one myself and had problems with both scab and mildew last year.

Just how far back it's origins go is very debatable, and some of the same company's recent other "special finds" actually start to make me suspect each of their stories to be slightly less credible. At best I think a case of wild wishful thinking (but hey could be personal revelation!), at worse cynical marketing...

As I suspected...!

[poseidia]

Gosh there are a lot of cynics on here. When we spoke to the seller of the Bardsey apple, Mr Sturrock, a few years back he was clearly no con-man and wasn't making a mint out of this. He sounded like the kind of guy I could relate to. The identification of the apple as a rare and unknown form was done by the top apple experts in the country.

Also no claim was made from the apple seller that it was in any way special because of its Arthurian and Avalonian connection. I'm not sure even today that he is aware even it is so special. There are plenty of monstrous people out there indulging in cynical marketing of all types of goods and this chap certainly isn't one of them. I must admit though I am a bit shocked to find that as at Dec 2007 the apples have been sold two years ahead. Well done him.

Incidentally, I think you will find that most people regard Glastonbury as Avalon and only one or two of us hold out for Bardsey. In fact when I first put two and two together I thought I might be the only one with that theory. However, I have since found at least one researcher who believes Bardsey is Avalon (see pasted reference below). Also I doubt you will find a reference to the Bardsey apple in this book because I believe it was written (1993) before the old apple tree was discovered by a birdwatcher in 1997. My personal view is that Arthur was taken to Bardsey after the battle to be healed of his wounds by the priestesses and also because it was a place of safety surrounded as it was by treacherous waters. However, he probably died there and would then have been carried to Glastonbury to be buried alongside his forebears - Joseph of Arimathea and possibly the Virgin Mary in the world's first christian church reputed to have been built by Christ's own hands and which we know was still standing at that time. Hence the confusion between Glastonbury and the real island of apples......

"Barber & Pykitt identify Ynys Enlli with the Isle of Avalon where King Arthur was taken to be healed of his wounds after the Battle of Camlann. The battle, they place at nearby Porth Cadlan on the mainland. Merlin's "Castle of Glass" on Ynys Enlli would appear to be the "Chamber of Glass" where Queen Morgan (or Modron) Le Fay lived and worked with her nine sisters (Merlin's companions) to heal King Arthur on the Isle of Avalon. Avalon, meaning "Place of Apples," was an aspect of the Celtic Otherworld, usually called Annwfn: an alternative name appearing throughout Celtic mythology was Caer Wydyr - the "Fort of Glass". Barber & Pykitt believe this to have been a sort of early greenhouse, attached to St. Cadfan's monastery, where Apples could grow, away from Ynys Enlli's treacherous south-west winds and where infirmary patients could recuperate in solarium-like conditions."

[Heron]

poseidia said:

Gosh there are a lot of cynics on here.

Not so much cynics as those who like to verify their sources.

My personal view is that Arthur was taken to Bardsey after the battle to be healed of his wounds [....]

Are you suggesting these things as actual history or alternative legend?

I don't know Barber & Pykitt but not much of this fits anything I know about either of those categories. But I'm open to persuasion.

[poseidia]

I'm not suggesting it is actual history. If you want to prove everything in history beyond a shadow of doubt then you end up with a list of names and dates and no feel for what actually went on at all. On the other hand with legend you get all of the feel but very little that stacks up in terms of names dates and hard evidence. Isn't the fun putting the two together and reconstructing what might have been. Sometimes the pieces of the puzzle fit together so well you can come to a position where you can convince yourself of the truth of a situation but you will still find it almost impossible to convince others - particularly if you are not an eminent academic. So I stand shoulder to shoulder with Henrietta Marshall who in the front of her wonderful book "Our Island Story" states:

"I must tell you , though, that this is not a history lesson, but a story book. There are many facts in school histories that seem to many children to belong to lessons only. Some of these you will not find here. But you will find some stories that are not to be found in your school books - stories which wise people say are only fairy-tales and not history. But it seems to me that they are part of our Island Story and ought not to be forgotten any more than those stories about which there is no doubt."

For me it is a tragedy that we teach our children history disconnected from the associated legends.

The fact that one of the rarest apples in the world has been found on Bardsey can be nothing more than circumstantial evidence for the premise that Bardsey is the "Isle of Apples". Equally, I find it hard to fit Glastonbury as an island with treacherous waters around it as suggested in the early texts but the fact is that Arhur does have a grave at Glastonbury with as good a claim as anywhere to be his final resting place. However, the dangerous currents around Bardsey are very well known. Bardsey has long been known as an ancient site with legends connected with its saints and with Merlin. I think there is good evidence that the battle in which Arthur was mortally wounded took place in modern Snowdonia as evidenced indeed in this thread. There is a river Gamlan there today which could easily be a Welsh language mutation of Camlan and that river does spill into Cardigan Bay from where it would appear logical to take a wounded and vulnerable king to Bardsey (Enlli) to be healed. Also when it was then realised he was dying would it not also be logical for him (a christian) to want to be buried with Joseph of Arimathea at the first church in Glastonbury. However, logic and intuition can't constitute history.

[littleraven]

Okay. You would have thought that the remaining Druids, the group that supposedly kept the histories of the tribes, at least had a name for their Otherworld that didn't come across in a legionaries backpack.

I know that Avalon has been claimed as Glastonbury, Mon, Puffin, Bardsey, Caldey and a dozen other islands around Britain whose names escape me. But not a one of them has ever explained why such an important sacred concept is named after a fruit introduced by the Romans.

Bardsey is a good one though, saints aside it's an island at the most westerly point as you follow the coast along from the undeniably sacred isle of Mon. Certainly a place for the dead, which might explain why it's supposed to have so many saints.

[littleraven]

poseidia said:

The fact that one of the rarest apples in the world has been found on Bardsey can be nothing more than circumstantial evidence for the premise that Bardsey is the "Isle of Apples". Equally, I find it hard to fit Glastonbury as an island with treacherous waters around it as suggested in the early texts but the fact is that Arhur does have a grave at Glastonbury with as good a claim as anywhere to be his final resting place.

Arthur has a grave at Glastonbury? I'm sorry but a rather handy "HIC IACET SEPULTUS INCLITUS REX ARTURIUS IN INSULA AVALONIA" (Here lies King Arthur in the Island of Avalon) is almost as unlikely as "X marks the spot". Do you not think that this is rather a useful disovery for the Glastonbury monks considering the popularity of the work of Chrétien de Troyes at the time?

[Tegernacus]

yeah, it's currently accepted that the Glastonbury monks made the whole thing up (including the grave and Rex Arturius ingraving), to boost pilgrim "trade" at a time when people simply weren't going there in great numbers. They did afterwards

I thought Arthur was buried in a cave with his army? Thats the story I was told as a kiddie.