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Post by Sìle on Mar 20, 2008 20:27:54 GMT -1
Bones put flesh on an ancient mythFor some, the Isle of Thanet is an area of great economic potential and a new hub for culture vultures. Others see it as a poor shadow of its glory days as a thriving 1950s seaside resort. But the dramatic discovery of a Bronze Age skeleton has resurrected considerable historical interest in the district and may just prove that a long-forgotten definition of its name is not merely based on myth and legend. For Thanet is, literally, the Isle of the Dead. Experts examining the remains of the 4,000-year-old skeleton, discovered by the Canterbury Archaeological Trust (CAT) near Monkton last week, say the find is an example how densely populated the land once was with burial mounds. Director of CAT Paul Bennett said: “Thanet was covered with small burial mounds, many of which were in groups and clusters across the land – the area is not unique in that respect, but there are definitely a large number there and they would have been conspicuous. “It had a rich agricultural landscape, and the mounds would have been visible to all probably up to medieval times when farming reduced them to flat land.” ~ Thanet giant: A strapping guy, but you wouldn't want to kiss him>>> He added: “There is also the fact that the word ‘Thanet’ is thought to be derived from the Latin Thanatus, which means Isle of the Dead.” East Kent is also thought to be the basis for the Greek legend of Ynys Thanatos (Isle of the Dead), where un-manned boats once rowed across the sea carrying bodies to the isle and returned empty before dawn. But regardless of its gruesome past, the isle remains an archaeological hotspot. The Ringlemere Cup, now on display in the British Museum, was discovered near Woodnesborough in 2001. This prompted further excavations of the area which uncovered a mass of Anglo-Saxon graves in 2005 and 2006. Mr Bennett said: “The whole of East Kent has a very rich archaeological landscape, including Thanet, with many burial mounds, roman farms and villas, and settlements.” Canterbury Archaeological Trust is looking for volunteers to help excavate the ancient burial site in Thanet. Volunteers need to commit several Saturdays to the project. It would be ideally suited to anyone studying or considering studying archaeology. Contact CAT on 01227 462062 or email mariongreen@canterburytrust.co.uk Source: Kent Online - lots of photographs to be viewed.
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Post by littleraven on Mar 21, 2008 0:45:47 GMT -1
Thanet becomes potentially a very interesting place in the context of the island of Sena spoken of by Pomponius Mela, the nine priestesses and the Avalon story.
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Post by Tegernacus on Mar 21, 2008 5:54:21 GMT -1
this is interesting (assuming you have Realplayer to actually watch it). synopsis: The name "Tenet" was listed in the Domesday book of 1086, whereas in the 18th century classical dictionary of John Lemprise it is states "Tane'tus, a small island of Albion. Ptolemy calls it Tolianis. The word Tanatus may come from the Celtic work "teine", meaning "fire" or "bonfire" and "arth" meaning "height" and would make Thanet the Bright Island. The greek word for Thanatus (for dead/death) is very similar, maybe leading to confusion over the name. Ynys Tanatus... Ynys Thanatus. Although the large number of barrows etc would have convinced a travelling Greek that this actually was the Island Of the Dead.
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Post by Lee on Mar 21, 2008 7:08:19 GMT -1
interesting. something to think about - the islands of the otherworld in the paradisaical sense were on the west coast (mabinogi of branwen). is this just a local convenient island for those in the area or potentially some sort of eastern otherworld where the dead reside whereas the west is the opposite. opposite to what you might think - kinda like passing a cup anticlockwise
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Post by arth_frown on Mar 21, 2008 7:47:46 GMT -1
Thanet becomes potentially a very interesting place in the context of the island of Sena spoken of by Pomponius Mela, the nine priestesses and the Avalon story. Kent is also famous for it's apples, might have bo**ocks all to do with it but I thought I'd mention it.
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Post by megli on Mar 21, 2008 9:05:52 GMT -1
Thump Thump Thump
That was the sound of my head banging against the wall with impatience at archaeologists who aren't linguists.
The British name of Thanet (where I was born and brought up and am currently sitting) was Ruim in Old Welsh: I seem to recall it appears in the Historia Brittonum c. 829. It wd be Rhwyf in Modern Welsh. There are various related forms like Ruiochim.
A hundred years later, they had adopted the English name, refering to Tanet or Danet in Armes Prydein (c. 930).
The etymology from Greek is loopy. Thanatus is not Latin for 'death' - it's just the Gk word given a Latin ending. How many other places in Britain can you think of that developed place-names drawn from ancient Greek?!
[whistles....]
For a proper etymology, we should be looking in Anglo-Saxon. The Brits had their own name, and it wasn't Ynys Thanatus! There's this funny thing from Solinus according to Camden's Brittania that calls it Thanatos or Athanatos but I am deeply suspicious. It looks wierd.
Old English ?thanet 'watery' from the verb thanian, 'get moist', might be a good place to start for a soggy island of depressing mudflats.
'teine arth' is fairly impossible: teine is Irish; the British was tan. arth is British and means 'bear'; the word for 'high' was ard. Again, places in south-eastern Britain do not have Irish etymologies. I suppose we might reconstruct a British name *tan-ardos 'high fire', but where does the -r- go?! These things work regularly, and not in 'well, it kind of sounds like...' patterns.
If we have to accept a pre-Saxon form something like *tanet-, misconstrued by Solinus as a Greek word, something related to the welsh word tenau might be best: 'thin', or 'extended, sticky-out bit'.
On the other hand, Ptolemy's Geography gives Tolianis or possibly Toliapis as a name which has been identified with the Isle of Thanet.
Suffix it to say, this is a mess; however, the etymology from Gk Thanatos is very unlikley to be correct. Hmm. I'd bet a lot on it.
I wonder if the old saxons were here rather earlier than British legend allows for. Anyone an archaeologist? When are the first Saxon remains discovered on the eastern seaboard? If there were Saxons on Thanet from the 3rd century, this might help us provide a sensible A-S etymology.
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Post by arth_frown on Mar 21, 2008 9:51:17 GMT -1
I wonder if the old saxons were here rather earlier than British legend allows for. Anyone an archaeologist? When are the first Saxon remains discovered on the eastern seaboard? If there were Saxons on Thanet from the 3rd century, this might help us provide a sensible A-S etymology. I have heard the Saxons were here during the roman era. Right I'm off to visit the dead at Margate and visit Benbon brother theme park, no wonder they think it's the island of the dead.
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Post by Tegernacus on Mar 21, 2008 9:52:00 GMT -1
hehehe.. I knew you'd like it It's a possibility. I don't know about archaeology, very little Roman stuff in Thanet. Popular legend puts Hengist landing in Thanet in 450ish. But the Irish sources put this as `when Gratian and Aquitias were consuls of Rome'. Which was earlier, 375. Whatever the date, after the arrival of the Saes "...The villa system and the Celtic language of the ancient Britons vanished, and all the old place names in Thanet are of Anglo-Saxon origin with the exception perhaps of Sarre which is considered to be Romano British or earlier." "The 'inge' (ingas) terminals in place names of Thanet indicate to some scholars that a secondary wave of colonisation took place during the 500s at places already settled by earlier Jutish settlers or even by the Romans. Garlinge is probably the earliest Saxon name in Thanet. The terminal 'ton' would appear to derive from early Saxon times to at least the 13th century. There are 12 or 13 'ton' placenames in Thanet - Upton, Dumpton, etc." Thanet Archaeology
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Post by megli on Mar 21, 2008 11:01:37 GMT -1
hmm. Yeah. Thanks for this; my guess wd be a very early Saxon prescence giving Thanet as the name. (I can see it from where I am writing!)
Benbom Brothers!!! Argh!!! Scene of many a childhood candyfloss nightmare. If ever I feel really depressed I visit margate. I always feel so much better when I leave.
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Post by Tegernacus on Mar 21, 2008 11:27:22 GMT -1
I think it was earlier too. Maybe it was like squatting.. the Saxons had landed and settled Thanet in the latter Roman period. Vortigern's 'giving of Thanet' was probably just an official acknowlegement that they were there "you've lived here for xxx years, help us fight the picts and we'll let you stay, it can be your land". "... the Isle Of Tenet was named Inis Ruim, or the Island Of Graves, by the Aire Coti (before expelled from Britain to Ireland) and retained by the Britons" sourceIsle Of Graves?
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Post by megli on Mar 21, 2008 12:16:15 GMT -1
what the hell is the arabic etymology doing? Arabic isn't an Indo-European language. This sniffs of some 1850 cod-philology. When I'm back in ox I'll check out the precise etymology of Ruim but don't believe this 'Isle of Graves' source - it's way too old and clearly has some very odd ideas.
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Post by megli on Mar 21, 2008 12:19:05 GMT -1
Just checked. The book that comes from is potty (1804): very concerned to demonstrate that Arabic and Irish are related. (Which they aren't.) What we need is some nice person with a copy of the Historia Brittonum to see if there's a comment on this name Ruim anywhere. I'm sure there is, but I dont have one at my parents' house here.
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Post by littleraven on Mar 21, 2008 12:28:41 GMT -1
There was significant Germanic presence in Britain from AD43 with the Roman invasion.In fact the Germanics were a preferred mercenary/auxillia after the decline of the Gauls in Europe.
The very famous Batavian cavalry were of Germanic stock and I believe were one of the groupings that later came under the umbrella of 'Saxon'. This is interesting because as they came from the Netherlands they specialised in warfare in very wet and waterlogged areas - it was they who crossed the Medway, and I believe were involved in the Mona crossing. If you consider Thanet as a 'wet place' there is a potential connection. If they were suited to the conditions they would be the obvious choices for being stationed in the area. SOmething to look into.
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Post by Tegernacus on Mar 21, 2008 12:34:04 GMT -1
"Vortigern received them as friends, and delivered up to them the island which is in their language called Thanet, and, by the Britons, Ruym." - J.A. Giles Translation (Sometimes called Ruoichin, Ruith-in, or "river island," separated from the rest of Kent and the mainland of Britain by the estuary of the Wantsum, which, though now a small brook, was formerly navigable for large vessels, and in Bede's time was three stadia broad, and fordable only at two places.) link
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Post by Tegernacus on Mar 21, 2008 12:39:42 GMT -1
incidently, Ruim is a word in both dutch and portugese. In dutch, it means wide/large/spacious. In Portugese it means bad/ruined (from the latin ruina)
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Post by megli on Mar 21, 2008 12:40:49 GMT -1
Marve. I'll see what the latest ed. says when I get home. Ruoichin etc looks a bit funny but I wouldn't like to come down against it without further material. I think he wants -in to be for Ynys , old welsh inis, but this is a very odd as the inis element always comes first in celtic place names and wdn't be reduced to -in.
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Post by megli on Mar 21, 2008 12:43:18 GMT -1
I think a portuguese link is hugely unlikely (as it didn't exist c. 450 and neither did dutch!) Nice to know though.
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Post by Heron on Mar 21, 2008 20:25:11 GMT -1
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle for the year 449:
On hiera dagum Hengest and Horsa from Wyrtgeorne geleaþade Bretta kyninge gesohton Bretene on þam staþe þe is genemned Ypwinesfleot,
which says that Hengist and Horsa landed in Britain at a place called Ypwinesfleot which has been identified as Ebsfleet on Thanet. Unfortunately the name of the Island isn't given.
The ascription of Celtic origins for any names people can't identify the meaning of is all too common. I've heard or read "it's an old Celtic name" no end of times and scratched my head to think how it has been derived but for the speaker or writer this is usually enough to banish it beyond consideration.
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Post by littleraven on Mar 21, 2008 22:27:58 GMT -1
Okay, two Roman forts opposite Thanet. One is Richbourough, the landing site of the 43 invasion, the other being 'Reculver'. Interstingly the only recorded garrison for Reculver is dated to the late 4/ early 5th cent, and is garrisoned by a Germanic auxilliary unit - The Cohors Primae Baetasiorum civium Romanorum, The First Cohort of Baetasii.
So you could well have an early Germanic connection.
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