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Post by arth_frown on Oct 7, 2008 14:25:31 GMT -1
Yes, Brittany counts too Anne Ross isn't a great source. She's fixated on the idea of a pan-Celtic society, which is now an outdated mode of thought. Some of her books are still quite useful, especially Pagan Celtic Britain - but it's best used for the sources rather than for her dodgy conclusions. Any recommendations for some more up to date thinking? Miranda Green?
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Post by alfvin on Oct 7, 2008 16:06:44 GMT -1
Hi Jez,
I'd avoiding Asatru Lore like the plague. I won't be going back again.
Alfvin
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Post by dreamguardian on Oct 7, 2008 18:03:31 GMT -1
Any recommendations for some more up to date thinking? I think she's fantastic. Highly recommended Rob
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Post by littleraven on Oct 7, 2008 18:21:20 GMT -1
Barry Cunliffe's little book is rrrubbish. Whihc Barry Cunliffe book is that? His books I tend to assocaite with coffee tables and massive price tags.
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Post by megli on Oct 7, 2008 22:36:34 GMT -1
'The Celts: A Short Introduction'
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Post by Blackbird on Oct 8, 2008 7:20:21 GMT -1
Miranda Green is nice and accessible. Cuncliffe and Pryor and the like are OK, but swinging too far in the other direction. It's as much about a political/social agenda than about history, but that's only my opinion, of course. John Collis' 'The Celts, History, Myth and Invention' (I think - it's downstairs and I haven't checked) is an interesting read and explains very clearly how the myth of 'Celticness' was developed.
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Post by megli on Oct 14, 2008 13:35:40 GMT -1
I'd like to thrown in the idea that it's not that the 'Celtic' doesn't exist, or is a bad word - we can certainly speak accurately and meaningfully of Celtic languages, Celtic literatures, and to an extent, Celtic history/-ies - rather, the problem is the 19th century tethering of the word to outdated and imperialistic cultural dualities: the 'Celt' understood as a naive, mystical, 'feminine', visionary, impractical and colonised constrast to the stolid, grounded, 'masculine', practical and imperially-powerful Teuton. A lot of people's ideas of 'Celtic' spirituality are filtered through this lens which is why such ideas tend to be sentimental and pernicous. But 'Celtic' is a useful and valid term in some arenas: I use it every day.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 14, 2008 15:16:53 GMT -1
yeah, but you use it in its proper, legitimate, academic context. Most people don't.
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Post by megli on Oct 15, 2008 20:08:54 GMT -1
Perhaps - but I want to register that it is not wholly meaningless. Arguing that it is so, or that the Britons weren't 'Celts', is a reaction to foggy uses of the word that has gone too far.
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Post by Heron on Oct 15, 2008 20:40:46 GMT -1
Perhaps - but I want to register that it is not wholly meaningless. Arguing that it is so, or that the Britons weren't 'Celts', is a reaction to foggy uses of the word that has gone too far. Quite! Babies ....bathwater
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Post by ceinach on Oct 19, 2008 18:27:44 GMT -1
ok, my turn for the numpty question. I am English, born in London. My gods are mainly of this land, probably with only one exception, that exception being an irish deity who seems to be the key to my ancestors. My family and ancestors are irish, so I am English mud and Irish Blood - does this negate my ability to be a brython as I do find I have conflict..
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Post by jez on Oct 19, 2008 18:45:20 GMT -1
Well, they've let me in, and I'm heathen.
Seriously, Brython is the whole of the Isles, not just the bits on the edges.
--
Jez
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Post by bram on Oct 19, 2008 18:51:06 GMT -1
I think you said it when you said 'I am English'. I would assume that there was a flow of people between the main land and Ireland and with people come beliefs and ideas. So I see no problem. I have the same pulls - though my linkage to Ireland is minimal, 1/32nd. It just means you hve to study twice as much
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Post by Heron on Oct 19, 2008 18:54:34 GMT -1
Well, they've let me in, and I'm heathen. Seriously, Brython is the whole of the Isles, not just the bits on the edges.
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Post by Heron on Oct 19, 2008 18:55:40 GMT -1
Well, they've let me in, and I'm heathen. Seriously, Brython is the whole of the Isles, not just the bits on the edges. YUP!
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Post by redraven on Oct 19, 2008 19:00:57 GMT -1
ok, my turn for the numpty question. I am English, born in London. My gods are mainly of this land, probably with only one exception, that exception being an irish deity who seems to be the key to my ancestors. My family and ancestors are irish, so I am English mud and Irish Blood - does this negate my ability to be a brython as I do find I have conflict.. I have traced my family name back to 1066 when we came over with the French. Does that make me French then? I think it has more to do with the land we live on, if we connect to her, then we are her children, no matter what our genetics happen to be, do you think it would matter to her? As to conflict, I have come to understand that "conflict" is a consequence of living, without it things stagnate and die, it is how you come to deal with this conflict that defines what you learn and how you move on. RR
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Post by jez on Oct 19, 2008 19:07:42 GMT -1
ok, my turn for the numpty question. I am English, born in London. My gods are mainly of this land, probably with only one exception, that exception being an irish deity who seems to be the key to my ancestors. My family and ancestors are irish, so I am English mud and Irish Blood - does this negate my ability to be a brython as I do find I have conflict.. I have traced my family name back to 1066 when we came over with the French. Does that make me French then? I think it has more to do with the land we live on, if we connect to her, then we are her children, no matter what our genetics happen to be, do you think it would matter to her? As to conflict, I have come to understand that "conflict" is a consequence of living, without it things stagnate and die, it is how you come to deal with this conflict that defines what you learn and how you move on. RR Your 'family name' is one thread of your ancestry (and, considering the difficulty of determining who the father of a child is, the least reliable thread If you have gone back to 1066, then the number of generations is around 100, so the fraction of DNA from your putative Norman (who were North Men anyway) ancestor is 1/(2^100) That's 1/1267650600000000000000000000000 So since the rest is probably 'native' I don't think you need worry too much. -- Jez
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Post by redraven on Oct 19, 2008 19:14:16 GMT -1
Norman? I am hoping they were mercenaries from Brittany, so you can take off one of those 0's! ;D
RR
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Post by jez on Oct 19, 2008 19:19:38 GMT -1
LOL Now, from where I sit, with a family tree traced on one line to a Welsh ancestor (Thomas Ap Padarn arrived in Shropshire with his family to work as a smith) in 1350 or so, and the rest (to at least 7 generations) from the Midlands, I am happily Mercian -- Jez
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