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Post by megli on Apr 21, 2008 15:49:57 GMT -1
That sounds like a good idea. I'll post the fourth handout in a few days and we can then let the information settle for a couple of weeks before we start looking at the text itself.
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Post by Francis on Apr 28, 2008 11:46:24 GMT -1
Hi Megli
This is probably an impossible question for you to answer, but I'll give it a go anyway!
I'm thinking about joining in on the Middle Welsh course, but my worry is that as someone with little to no natural facility for languages, and as a modern welsh learner, I'm just setting myself up to become completely muddled. Is this a typical problem for folk attempting to learn both Middle and Modern Welsh at the same time?
Stephen
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Post by megli on Apr 28, 2008 14:29:51 GMT -1
To be frank, yes. But don't be put off. It can really enrich your understanding of the language, and a bit of Modern Welsh will be a huge advantage. My advice would be to treat them as totally separate languages until they begin to come into focus, then you can stand back and see how they relate. Knowledge of Middle Welsh will also help you read formal literary Modern Welsh, eventually. Why not try it and see?
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Post by Heron on Apr 29, 2008 15:51:26 GMT -1
I'd support Megli's comments here Stephen.
Even learning Modern Welsh you have to get used to the difference between the formal written and spoken forms (which themselves have their written expression). So Middle Welsh adds depth to your understanding of the language and explains why some things are as they are.
The best philosophy to adopt here is expect everything to be fuzzy and keep at it until things come into sharper focus.
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Post by megli on Apr 29, 2008 16:06:14 GMT -1
When would people like to start? I suggest that I post the first line over the weekend and people can then wrestle with it at their leisure, and we can reconvene next week. I know Lee and Crogga are sorted for the books, but what about others?
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Post by crogga on Apr 29, 2008 20:44:33 GMT -1
Actually, my books won't be here until middle of next week, I imagine. (Ordered but not arrived.) But go right ahead. If it's only one line ...
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Post by daibanjo on Oct 1, 2008 22:41:29 GMT -1
This is terrific. I've been reading through this course and it's fascinating. I'm a Welsh speaker from Llanelli and though I remember learning grammar and mutations in school I promptly forgot it all. When ever i've been asked why I mutate a word I've had to answer "buggered if I know"
Reading through this is a real eye opener. Being able to read the old texts would be something I'd love to accomplish.
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Post by megli on Oct 2, 2008 11:20:17 GMT -1
If you are a native speaker it's straightforward to learn. We might think in terms of resuming this course?...
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Post by pencoed on Sept 18, 2009 17:55:33 GMT -1
Hello everyone... little idea here which I've been discussing with LR for a while. Basically, if anyone wanted to learn to read Middle Welsh, using 'Branwen', I'd be happy to 'teach' the basics, whether on here, or as LR has said, on the upcoming Brython forum. The idea would be that after reading through 'Branwen', people would be able to read the other Four Branches, and with more effort, Culhwch and Olwen, on their own. This is just an idea - but what would be needed to make it worthwhile is the following: a) people (even if only one or two) prepared to put in a definite commitment to having a go weekly. b) they would need to buy some books: a copy of the edition ( Branwen Uerch Lyr, ed. by Derick S. Thomson (1961, repr. 1986, 2003). ISBN 1 85500 059 8 and of the Grammar of Middle Welsh: (A Grammar of Middle Welsh , by D. Simon Evans (1964, repr. 1989, 1994, 2003, 2006) ISBN 1 85500 000 8 Both of the above are orderable here: www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/orders.htmland they would need a good (not Charlotte Guest!) translation, to act as a crib. Jones and Jones is closest to the Welsh in 'style'. There would be no need for any prior experience with languages, including Welsh, but if you have no such experience you would need to work harder and do more research. All jargon would be explained. It would be likely to have highly technical moments, concentrating on the language deeply, but with appreciation of the text as well. As we go through, you'd make your own personal translation. What I visualise is people signing up, if they want, and ordering the books. While we wait for them to arrive, I would post a basic introduction to the necessary terminology. Then we would start by me posting one line of the original, with commentary, and people having a stab at a translation using the edition, which has a commentary and full vocabulary, and querying anything they don't get. Then, as we progress, the amount of text each week would expand, until we were doing, say, fifteen lines a week. It would take six months or so to get through most of the text, and would require about an hour's work a week. Let me know if this interests any of you! Mark S'mae Mark, this sounds excellent  but speaking as a backward-lapsed (frustrated) student of [Gogledd] Modern Welsh, how about mirroring the Middle Welsh with the modern equivalent please? found a copy of Ifor William's 'Poems of Taliesin' [1975] which i can understand very little of (if any) but am having 'hwyl' reading the notes. i think these poems were written c.1100, not sure if this falls into 'middle' or 'early' Welsh? Williams appears to omit some poems which i associate with Taliesin, such as Cad Goddeu?diolch Ric |
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Post by megli on Sept 19, 2009 7:08:57 GMT -1
Hi Ric
Williams' volume contains the 12 poems which he thought could be dated to a historical bard of the late 6th century; modern scholarship is now sceptical about at least one of these.
Cad Goddau and other poems you associate with Taliesin are later compositions in a 'persona'; the voice of Taliesin as a mythical superpoet, and were composed between around 950 and 1200ish. The date varies in individual cases.
For these later, 'mystical', poems, the edition you need isn't Williams, it's Marged Haycock, 'Legendary Poems from the Book Taliesin' (Aberystwyth, 2007).
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Post by pencoed on Sept 19, 2009 20:09:00 GMT -1
Hi Ric Williams' volume contains the 12 poems which he thought could be dated to a historical bard of the late 6th century; modern scholarship is now sceptical about at least one of these. Cad Goddau and other poems you associate with Taliesin are later compositions in a 'persona'; the voice of Taliesin as a mythical superpoet, and were composed between around 950 and 1200ish. The date varies in individual cases. For these later, 'mystical', poems, the edition you need isn't Williams, it's Marged Haycock, 'Legendary Poems from the Book Taliesin' (Aberystwyth, 2007). Thanks Mark, the Haycock is on my short list  |
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Post by megli on Sept 19, 2009 20:10:50 GMT -1
Its very very good!
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Post by pencoed on Sept 19, 2009 22:31:33 GMT -1
ok - i bit the bullet |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 9:17:52 GMT -1
I first read bits of the Mabinogion at school in a modernised Welsh version for younger readers. I've recently been re-reading the same version by Gwyn Thomas I found in a second hand bookshop. It has nice pictures by Margaret Jones. I think there is also an English translation with the same pictures. I also bought the English translation by Sioned Davies. But I think I should make the effort to read it in Welsh. Though I don't think I could manage the medieval version without help. Any suggestions?
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Post by Heron on Oct 20, 2011 20:34:41 GMT -1
I first read bits of the Mabinogion at school in a modernised Welsh version for younger readers. I've recently been re-reading the same version by Gwyn Thomas I found in a second hand bookshop. It has nice pictures by Margaret Jones. I think there is also an English translation with the same pictures. I also bought the English translation by Sioned Davies. But I think I should make the effort to read it in Welsh. Though I don't think I could manage the medieval version without help. Any suggestions? Welcome Hamadryad If you are a native Welsh-speaker then you should be able to move on from the Gwyn Thomas Mabinogi (which is quite respectable in its own way) to another modern Welsh version such as the one by Rhiannon and Dafydd Ifans which follows the original quite closely except that the grammar and spelling is modernized and obsolete words are replaced by those in current usage. If you want to go on from there to try the original you might find that working through the Ifor Williams text using the extensive notes is enough rather than using an edition with glossary intended for those who do not know modern Welsh. Depends on your linguistic skills and how far you went with Welsh in school I suppose. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2011 21:17:31 GMT -1
Welcome Hamadryad If you are a native Welsh-speaker then you should be able to move on from the Gwyn Thomas Mabinogi (which is quite respectable in its own way) to another modern Welsh version such as the one by Rhiannon and Dafydd Ifans which follows the original quite closely except that the grammar and spelling is modernized and obsolete words are replaced by those in current usage. If you want to go on from there to try the original you might find that working through the Ifor Williams text using the extensive notes is enough rather than using an edition with glossary intended for those who do not know modern Welsh. Depends on your linguistic skills and how far you went with Welsh in school I suppose. Thanks Heron I'll have a look for that book. I suppose I'm a native Welsh speaker though only one of my parents speak it I went to Welsh medium school. But didn't do Welsh after GCSE as I then did mostly science and geography. I suppose I should at least have a look at the medieval text. |
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Post by megli on Nov 5, 2011 21:21:08 GMT -1
If you get stuck, feel free to shout out. The grammar on here (esp the bit about the 'orders') might help as that's the main difference---apart from the spelling---between Middle Welsh and the form of the language you;re used to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2011 13:47:23 GMT -1
OK thank you.
I have just had a look at the other threads and the bits of the medieval text you put there look OK. The spelling is a bit confusing. I'm used to seeing 'v' for 'f' in some old writings but 'u' looks funny, and 'f' is there in some words. Is it only 'u' at the beginning of words?
As far as I can see what you call the abnormal order is like modern Welsh when the order is changed for emphasis, but there doesn't seem to be any emphasis in the bit you give as an example. Is that right?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 14:05:40 GMT -1
OK thank you. I have just had a look at the other threads and the bits of the medieval text you put there look OK. The spelling is a bit confusing. I'm used to seeing 'v' for 'f' in some old writings but 'u' looks funny, and 'f' is there in some words. Is it only 'u' at the beginning of words? Sorry, I've just read some more in that thread and can see that 'u' is also used as it is today and also as 'w' is now  I can make out some stretches of it , then it goes hazy. Your explanations help though. I think I would need a special dictionary to carry on with it. There's a second hand bookshop I go to sometimes that has books in Welsh including old text books. I'll see what I can find there. |
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