Branwen: difficulties & queries

[crogga]

Forgive me for taking matters into my own hand, but I wanted to ask a question and there didn't appear to be a thread for that yet. So I've made one.

The first half of the sentence is crystal-clear but will the meaning of the second half become less ambiguous as the story progresses? Because the words as you've given them in translation don't seem to be giving me a very straightforward sub-clause. It's not so much ungrammatical as opaque in meaning.

Unless I've missed the point. Which is perfectly possible.

Sorry, am I meant to be saying what I've got so far or waiting until later? I don't want to jump ahead before people are ready.

[megli]

Np Crogga. The point about the sentence is that it is demontrating how the author/redactor of the text visualises the political arrangements of the pre-Roman Britains: not a collection of squabbling tribes, but as a country with its capital at London, under one high king. This is obviously highly anachronistic.

But that's why Bran is 'a crowned king over this island' and 'invested with the crown of London'. The literal meaning of 'ardyrchawc' is 'conspicuous, excellent' but when one adds the phrase 'o goron', 'from [the] crown', one has to translate as 'invested with the crown'. The absolutely literal meaning is something like 'conspicuous as a result of [the] crown of London'.

So his kingship over the whole of Britain is symbolised by the fact he wears the crown of London. Or, since he's a giant, presumably keeps it on a little cushion somewhere!

[crogga]

Ah. I wondered, fleetingly, if 'the crown of London' was intended metaphorically. But hardly an issue here, as we play dot-to-dot with the grammar.

[megli]

No, I think it's literal. He's the 'high-king', as it were.

[crogga]

Cool.

[Lee]

im going to post this here for now for comments etc. im at work and am doing the translation from what i know plus the notes and commentary on the other thread.

Bendigeiduran uab Llyr a oed urenhin coronawc ar yr ynys hon, ac ardyrchawc o goron Lundein.

Bendigeidfran son of Llyr was the crowned king of these isles and was invested with the crown of london.


this seems a little clumsy to me, my instinct is to make it flow more in an english translation rather then trying to stick almost word for word in MW.

[megli]

Perfect! - apart from the fact that 'ynys', 'island' is singular, so 'this island' (i.e Britain and not Ireland, which of course is important later on!). The plural would be 'ynysoed'.

I think you can get away with the 'the' before 'crowned king', though technically it isn't there in the Welsh.

Also 'ar' is 'over' or 'upon' rather than 'of': 'B son of Ll was a crowned king over this island' is how I might have done it.

Well done!

[Lee]

im really getting in this now, whcih isnt such a good thing as im i work and have so much to be getting on with!

anyway...

3. They were sitting upon the rock of harlech, overlooking the ravaging ocean (sea sounds so tame and inappropriate for ravaging), manawydan son of llyr his brother with him and the two brothers of one monther with him; Nissyen and Efnissyen, and noblemen in addition to them too as is befitting around a king.


the talk of manawydan and ef. and ny. being there is a little clumsy and the latter part more so. i there a 'smoother' way of putting this part?

[megli]

That was GREAT!
You missed out an 'and' at the start of the sentence and before 'Manwydan', which wd help it flow better. 'Ravening ocean' is really nice!

Be careful with little words - you added a definite article before the 'two brothers' which isn't there in the text. (They aren't necessarily his *only* two brothers by the same mother.) Also gwedei was imperfect in tense (the 'was/were' tense), not present as in your translation.

3. 'And they were sitting upon the rock of Harlech, overlooking the ravaging ocean, and Manawydan son of Llyr his brother with him, and two brothers by the same mother as him, Nissyen and Efnissyen, and noblemen in addition to these, as was befitting around a king.'

But really well done, this is excellent! How are other's getting on?

[Lee]

the little words and little buggers.

the other difficulty is taking a flowing script and turning into another langauge and render it in a manner whcih also flows. though this is something that will come with time and experience too.

[littleraven]

May 2, 2008 11:39:21 GMT -1 megli said:

That was GREAT!
You missed out an 'and' at the start of the sentence and before 'Manwydan', which wd help it flow better. 'Ravening ocean' is really nice!

Be careful with little words - you added a definite article before the 'two brothers' which isn't there in the text. (They aren't necessarily his *only* two brothers by the same mother.) Also gwedei was imperfect in tense (the 'was/were' tense), not present as in your translation.

3. 'And they were sitting upon the rock of Harlech, overlooking the ravaging ocean, and Manawydan son of Llyr his brother with him, and two brothers by the same mother as him, Nissyen and Efnissyen, and noblemen in addition to these, as was befitting around a king.'

But really well done, this is excellent! How are other's getting on?

As of yet I've not been able to order the required books

[Blackbird]

Me neither - still waiting for someone to pay me... someone... please...

(Actually not quite true, I got a cheque through this morning, so that should clear in by the end of next week)

[crogga]

I'm not as far through as ancestrallee. But hopefully I'll feel strong enough later this weekend to tackle a bit more.

I'm so behind with everything at the moment, it's insane. My To-Do list just for today spans some 17 items. Including a two hour meeting in central Birmingham!

[Lee]

i got my books yesterday, they are really cute little hardbacks. i will crack on with some reading this evening and do some more translation perhaps.

[megli]

Good luck everyone. Would people let me know whether this is clear and comprehensible, or confusing? It's hard to assess - I'm used to being able to see people's faces! Glad you got the books Lee.

[crogga]

Megli asked for feedback on the 'course' so far. I'm a little behind - still on line four! - but glad of a few days' grace to catch up. May seems to have been a massively busy month for me so far; hopefully things will slow down and allow me to find time for this as the summer progresses.

As far as clarity is concerned, it seems clear enough so far. Lenition is still a bit of a mystery - though only because I haven't bothered learning all its instances and changes, not because it's unclear in itself!

[Lee]

im on line 9 - though i have the book. im a bit behind at the moment as this week is a bitch -will have more time over the weekend and next week to hammer on. am aiming to get page 1 done by the end of next week at minimum.

[megli]

oh bleeding hell! post up what youve done or PM it to me when you feel ready and I'll check it. There's some more grammar stuff to introduce which we haven't covered yet.

[crogga]

Hi Megli. Don't get too wound up about our sloth. It is fascinating stuff and I'm very grateful to have the chance to read this, particularly at a nice easy pace. But at the moment, I'm finding it hard to do more than a couple of lines a week. Of the Branwen, that is, not cocaine.

As I said above, things should ease off a little once we're into June. My schedule for this week and weekend alone is insane, something major almost every day. With people constantly 'expecting' things from me. I hate that sort of public responsibility; I'm just not used to it!

So nice and slow is good for me. Frustrating for you, I'm sure. But good for me.

I'll post something up once I have enough to make my efforts look less pitiful. I did the last sentence rather hurriedly in a supermarket cafe with a small child dancing round me. Not sure that's really the best atmosphere for serious study!