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Post by littleraven on Sept 23, 2008 13:51:51 GMT -1
If you can't be there, but have points you wish to be raised, put them here so we can make sure they are heard.
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Post by Tegernacus on Sept 24, 2008 7:18:46 GMT -1
actually, yeah. I would like to know why it is necessary for all these flipping organisations. TDN, OBOD, COBOD, TDO, and other such acronyms with D in them.
I understand the need for different groves/covens like, local communities. But in terms of a nationwide umbrella why are there so many? Can't we just have one? One that liaises with government, religious bodies, HAD etc. One that represents all their members interests, not just their followers. If such a thing exists already, then forget I said anything. And I have no idea how to create it/run it, just asking the question.
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Post by Lee on Sept 24, 2008 7:31:55 GMT -1
currently PEBBLE is the organisation that fulfils liaising with public bodies. Cobdo, tdn and obod all have representatives there - its a cross party group if you like.
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Post by Tegernacus on Sept 24, 2008 7:43:50 GMT -1
ah, ok then. So why not dissolve all those others and put all the effort into Pebble? Instead of having groves, who have representitives on TDN, who have representitives on Pebble.. seems silly to me.
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Post by littleraven on Sept 24, 2008 7:47:44 GMT -1
Teg, Teg, Teg. What a silly question.
How can everyone be an 'arch-Druid' if they don't start their own organisation with D for Druid in it?
It's not a meritocracy y'know. Whoesoever can volunteer fastest to sit at their lord/ladies feet will be rewarded with untold gifts in the Otherworld/Heaven/whatever.
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Post by littleraven on Sept 24, 2008 7:48:31 GMT -1
currently PEBBLE is the organisation that fulfils liaising with public bodies. Cobdo, tdn and obod all have representatives there - its a cross party group if you like. Ooh, actually that's a thread in itself. I'll start one.
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Post by Lee on Sept 24, 2008 9:04:50 GMT -1
assuming i will be there - im going to ask why we even need druids at all and suggest that we aim to ditch druidry completely.... for the time being
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Post by Tegernacus on Sept 24, 2008 10:05:34 GMT -1
How can everyone be an 'arch-Druid' if they don't start their own organisation with D for Druid in it? but surely "arch-druid" implies there is only one? It's like the Catholics having a load of popes. Smacks too much of Indian-style Gurus... although, given the emphasis given by certain parties, hardly surprising. If we're going to have one, I vote for the Arch-druid of the National Eisteddfod. At least he speaks Welsh. And is old enough to merit the title.
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Post by Tegernacus on Sept 24, 2008 10:06:53 GMT -1
assuming i will be there - im going to ask why we even need druids at all and suggest that we aim to ditch druidry completely.... for the time being We're approaching the Rubicon. Sooner or later we're going to have to decide: do we piddle about, or cross over?
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Post by Lee on Sept 24, 2008 10:41:14 GMT -1
assuming i will be there - im going to ask why we even need druids at all and suggest that we aim to ditch druidry completely.... for the time being We're approaching the Rubicon. Sooner or later we're going to have to decide: do we piddle about, or cross over? im assuming you dont mean the fruit juice brand or declaring an act of war. i say we press on. ditch the idea of everyone being a druid - that will come later - we establish our tribe and our community, we get togther and sort out what we are first of all. build the community foirst, build the relationship with the gods - together. THEN when we have a community the need for a priesthood might arise - unless you have a community you dont need priests and thier many roles. if such an opccassion arises, people will naturally assume the role and the community will accept them as such - those they dont accept wont have a role or community to serve. the whole thing should be an organic evolution, not a forced top down creation. innuendo aside - i see Brython as the bottom up approach we need.
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Post by littleraven on Sept 24, 2008 10:48:26 GMT -1
How can everyone be an 'arch-Druid' if they don't start their own organisation with D for Druid in it? but surely "arch-druid" implies there is only one? It's like the Catholics having a load of popes. Smacks too much of Indian-style Gurus... although, given the emphasis given by certain parties, hardly surprising. Well yes, but they basically do that already with tons of self-appointed 'priests' running around. But calling yourself arch-Druid obviously makes you 'priestier'. Then you can have a newsletter. (anyone remember the old BDO newsletters that were basically 'What Greywolf and Bobcat did on their holidays'?) If we're going to have one, I vote for the Arch-druid of the National Eisteddfod. At least he speaks Welsh. And is old enough to merit the title. Yep, at least the members of the Gorsedd have earnt the title.
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Post by wodensown on Sept 24, 2008 10:57:31 GMT -1
Whoesoever can volunteer fastest to sit at their lord/ladies feet will be rewarded with untold gifts in the Otherworld/Heaven/whatever. You know, if that was the case, and some of them thought that by doing so they would reap some kind of otherworldly reward, it wouldn't be so bad, Then you might see them knocking on doors on a sunday with some of the same committment and fervour as the J.W.'s but most of them just want the 'kudos' of being the big fish in the little pond of Avebury or wherever!
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Post by Craig on Sept 24, 2008 11:16:08 GMT -1
Hi Lee et al.,
The reason I keep talking about the 'British Native Religions' is to put a little clear blue water between what we are trying to achieve and the slough of despond or goblin market that is modern 'druidry'.
I agree utterly on the formation of a tribe first, a community, and from these foundations build commuity ceremonies and celebrations, explore the godss and spirits together, delve into the history and archaeology of this land and bring forth a way of living that would make our ancestors proud.
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Post by Blackbird on Sept 24, 2008 13:50:59 GMT -1
OK, sounds good - but what do we mean by 'community'?
In reality, we all belong to lots of different (some overlapping) communities, of which the pagan/polytheist community may not be the most important, day to day.
I agree - it's one of the things I've been chuntering about for years - that druids must serve their communities rather than being self appointed tablecloth-wafters. But how can that happen in a meaningful sense for us when most of us are geographically separate? As Clare suggests, does this mean we need to move closer together? How practical is that? (Not at all, mostly...) Does it mean that one of our priorities should be the forming of local groups? Or can our 'community' successfully remain in existence only online?
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Post by clare on Sept 24, 2008 16:50:33 GMT -1
Ha! the discussion is here too!
It pains me to say this, because I will be enormously inconvenienced, but . . . unless people physically move nothing will alter. That's why there's a meeting at Flag Fen. I know it's not practical. I don't particularly want to do it. But it's doable, and unless it's done it's just more of the same. The routine of worship and work and responsibility happens much easier when it's done day to day, no?
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Post by arth_frown on Sept 24, 2008 17:00:39 GMT -1
Dropping the word druid and having a tradition with boundaries. I'm sure some will agree and some will not, but as the saying goes 'if the shoe fits wear it'.
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Post by Lee on Sept 24, 2008 23:37:07 GMT -1
i think for those who want to hold on to their druid titles, we need to ask why. find out exactly why they deserve to be priests, who the community they serve is, which of the roles the original druids they perform now. im willing to bet nearly every one will be in an indefensible position and wont be able to 'justify' it. cant wait
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Post by Adam on Sept 25, 2008 1:05:02 GMT -1
i think for those who want to hold on to their druid titles, we need to ask why. find out exactly why they deserve to be priests, who the community they serve is, which of the roles the original druids they perform now. im willing to bet nearly every one will be in an indefensible position and wont be able to 'justify' it. cant wait I think you'll be dissappointed. No neo-druid with any modicum of sense (eep...waits with baited breath) will argue based on comparison... and while you might find the position indefensible, they probably won't... impasse. The neo vs recon arguement has gone on too long for there to be any meaningful mileage IMO. Personally, I think we will be better served by the bottom up community model you discussed earlier and presenting a different path. From my own experience, it can be tough trying to make sense of a growing awareness of one's own paganism alone, and the druid orgs provide a sense of initial community with ready access. If it is flawed, build a better one, and people will move on to it in time.
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Post by Craig on Sept 25, 2008 6:34:32 GMT -1
In my experience many people want to part of something meaningful. They have lives and cannot always commit to a lot, but they still have this basic need. We are social animals after all and many feel lost in the isolation typical of modern Western society. In neo-druidry the only thing you generally can be is a 'druid'. True there are organizations within neo-druidry that promote a small variety of roles within them - bards, ovates and druids for instance. This is why I am keen to work on the concept of tribe. In every society on earth the core social model was first family and then tribe - it is a natural state for us barely evolved hunter-gatherers. In a tribe there is a role for everyone from the smallest boy to the oldest grandmother, not everyone has to become a priest, a druid. It is only as we became 'civilised' that we lost that model and the security it brings on a human scale. If we are to move forwards I feel we need to restore the central place of first family and then tribe under the common reverence for the British Native Religions. I understand the point being made here about physical separation, but with the marvellous communication tools our 'civilization' has given us we have an opportunity to lay the foundations. I speak often to friends about agreeing some common ceremonies to mark the passing of the year and our lives. These need not be religiously restrictive but based on the needs of ther family and the tribe. They are neither doctrine nor dogma but necessary to any successful human social model, especially the tribal. Look at we already have in our chaotic modern society - people still get their children christened, even though most of the attendees are not really christians, they have coming of age parties, engagement parties, weddings, anniversaries, Easter Egg hunts, go to Solstice celebrations even though they are not ostensibly pagan, big tribal [family & friends] get togethers when you are 40 or 50, mother's day, father's day, hallowe'en, guy fawkes bonfires, christmas... it goes on the community celebrations that are really non-denominational. We can even agree a series of useful prayers and uplifting songs to share. Again these are neither doctrine nor dogma. This is where the Anglican Communion beats catholicism and orthodoxy hands down, in its ability to encompass under one central belief as disparate a range of individual religions - no wonder it needs a druid to lead it Family first, then tribe, with a common reverence for the gods, spirits and heroes of the British Native Religions. Thanks to you all for guiding my mind to this point.
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