|
Post by stefan on Nov 14, 2008 15:14:46 GMT -1
Firstly let me thank LR and others for considering this to be a worthy aspect of exploration within the context of ancient British culture. I think its a great place to explore that which cannot be proved, but seems to have validity. Also I personally am keen to keep these threads relevant to ancient British religion and hope that although not strictly provable, do not entirely belong to the realms of complete fantasy.
Castration. The very term feels somewhat uncomfortable and to a certain extent inhumane. I believe it is linked directly to the functions or certain male gods that are connected to the natural world. The vegetation god would encompass this remit, whether of a green man nature or harvest, but the oxen, (castrated bull) was also a powerful aspect of agricultural society.
When a hunter becomes the victim of a boars wrath, the likely injury is castration and the ripping open of the stomach. This must have been something hunters feared and may have had a powerful influence upon the hunters mindset. The Gaulish coins with Apollo/Belenus on them also have the symbol of the boar. By many the boar is associated to the sun. It is the sun which causes things to grow. Fertility is connected to the sun, taking fertility away became associated originally to the boars tusk, the first sickle. Grave goods have been discovered dating back to the Neolithic with boars tusks. These tusks are believed to hold religious significance and may have been worn by sun priests.
Castration was I believe perceived as a magical act. The bull is tamed by castration. Castration holds unbelievable power. Therefore a castrated god is tamed and yields its power. Therefore castration of a vegetation god is very different to say picking apples from a tree. It is when vegetation is perceived in a male god form that castration becomes relevant. So the harvesting of a crop god is also castrated before his seed can blow wild in the breeze and be released. His fertility has been taken in order to be transformed.
The magic here is in the priesthood manipulating nature in order to control it. The mistletoe is believed by many to be the sperm of the male god. The cutting of the mistletoe is an act of castration. The mistletoe yields to the needs of the priesthood. It was believed to be cut on the 6th day of the moon, a sickle moon before the Winter Solstice. Symbolism here would seem to be an act of sympathetic magic related to the conception and rebirth of the sun, two white bulls were also sacrificed.
The twin sun god is also fertile and infertile in one of the dual teachings and some suggest the winter twin is castrated and sent down to the underworld with all the ill luck and misfortune of the tribe at Beltane when Belenus becomes victorious.
I have written the above from memory, there is more historically related information that I will add later to flesh these concepts out when I refresh my research.
This may provide more understanding of the Druidic sickle symbolism and also the sacrifice of the male god, whom may have been a human victim. Castration seems to be related to the taming, controlling and taking of power, rather than simply to make something sterile. The seed is taken to perform a magical act or its symbolism is acknowledged as a sacrifice for the betterment of the tribe as in the case of the harvest.
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Nov 15, 2008 20:18:13 GMT -1
Firstly let me thank LR and others for considering this to be a worthy aspect of exploration within the context of ancient British culture. I think its a great place to explore that which cannot be proved, but seems to have validity. Also I personally am keen to keep these threads relevant to ancient British religion and hope that although not strictly provable, do not entirely belong to the realms of complete fantasy. Absolutely it's worthy of exploration. I am going to acquire the books you referenced in an attempt to offer some informed opinions, so don't think I'm ignoring you until I get them!
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 17, 2008 16:10:56 GMT -1
Here's a little more information on this thread of castration.
In the classical world, Osiris, Adonis and Attis are all killed by a Boar. Again our native sun god Belenus seems to be connected to the boar. These classical gods all have son of god symbolism related to vegetation of the crops. Dionysus also like Osiris has this symbolism of the penis separated from the body providing distinct fertility symbolism. His mystery was in part to do with his penis/serpent kept in a ritualistic basket. Priests of Attis castrated themselves in service to the goddess Cybele. The penis myth of Osiris is well documented.
The penis as a fertility symbol is well known and many have been found at neolithic sites around Britain. Again it is the penis dismembered, with functions in its own right separate from the body and believed to posses great power.
What has the classical world got to do with Britain? I hear you ask. John Matthews vision of the Celtic shaman is a vast over simplification of ancient British religion. The classical son gods all have one thing in common. Agriculture. Agriculture has had perhaps the most profound effect of the consciousness of human development. It made religion far more sophisticated than that of the hunter gatherers and their shaman. I find it difficult to believe as Britain became agricultural that it would have done so in complete isolation of how agriculture effected all the countries religions around us with whom we traded. Indeed we can trace many similarities.
The last of these vegetation influenced son/sun gods was Jesus Christ. Many of the classical gods are born on Christmas day and are sacrificed in the spring, including Mithra's, yet another example and also worshiped here in Britain.
It is a misconception that the Winter Solstice is the rebirth of the sun. It is the death of the sun. Solstice means stand still time, the sun starts to move north again on Christmas day. Orions belt, (the three kings) follow the star of the east, (Sirius) and point at an angel of 45 degrees to the rising sun on Christmas day. If JC subsumed our native religion, it seems likely to me, a variation of a classical sun/son/vegetation god was also worshiped here. Druidry had aspects of shamanic practice, but the the religions theology was far more highly evolved than that of a hunter gatherer people and without doubt, so was that of the Wessex Culture.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 18, 2008 8:41:13 GMT -1
Here's a little more information on this thread of castration. In the classical world, Osiris, Adonis and Attis are all killed by a Boar. Again our native sun god Belenus seems to be connected to the boar. These classical gods all have son of god symbolism related to vegetation of the crops. Dionysus also like Osiris has this symbolism of the penis separated from the body providing distinct fertility symbolism. His mystery was in part to do with his penis/serpent kept in a ritualistic basket. Priests of Attis castrated themselves in service to the goddess Cybele. The penis myth of Osiris is well documented. The penis as a fertility symbol is well known and many have been found at neolithic sites around Britain. Again it is the penis dismembered, with functions in its own right separate from the body and believed to posses great power. What has the classical world got to do with Britain? I hear you ask. John Matthews vision of the Celtic shaman is a vast over simplification of ancient British religion. The classical son gods all have one thing in common. Agriculture. Agriculture has had perhaps the most profound effect of the consciousness of human development. It made religion far more sophisticated than that of the hunter gatherers and their shaman. I find it difficult to believe as Britain became agricultural that it would have done so in complete isolation of how agriculture effected all the countries religions around us with whom we traded. Indeed we can trace many similarities. The last of these vegetation influenced son/sun gods was Jesus Christ. Many of the classical gods are born on Christmas day and are sacrificed in the spring, including Mithra's, yet another example and also worshiped here in Britain. It is a misconception that the Winter Solstice is the rebirth of the sun. It is the death of the sun. Solstice means stand still time, the sun starts to move north again on Christmas day. Orions belt, (the three kings) follow the star of the east, (Sirius) and point at an angel of 45 degrees to the rising sun on Christmas day. If JC subsumed our native religion, it seems likely to me, a variation of a classical sun/son/vegetation god was also worshiped here. Druidry had aspects of shamanic practice, but the the religions theology was far more highly evolved than that of a hunter gatherer people and without doubt, so was that of the Wessex Culture. Hi, it was always going to be me who came along to comment on this i thought Osiris was killed by Set? i am aware that someone or other was out hunting boar when they found him? also Attis castrated himself out of madness. the boar thing was much later and possibly an invention to account for dietary taboos amongst some of the gauls - the Lydians i believe it was. i agree that agriculture would have had a huge affect upon culture and religion in britain. that said, having seen the britain BC proramme by Francis Pryor, it seems that agriculture of sorts was developing in britain and was an invention of the britons too. if as the archaeologial evidence suggests during the neolithic people were effectively into a form of ancestor worship - it begs the question how quite a complex mythos surrounding sun and vegetation gods could arise. paralells with greece and egypt are all good and well, though we need to bear in mind that culturally they are very different to britain. funnily enough the boar is playng a big part in terms of what i am doing at the moment - though it seems to be in terms of being the 'spirit of winter'; crushing the life out of the land, ushering in the darkness and culling off the weak. and yet offering a chance at surviving the harshness of winter.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 18, 2008 10:26:56 GMT -1
Hi ancestralle, funny I was thinking of you yesterday and your energy at FF, no worries re questioning my posts and picking the bones, I have no problem with it at all, its good to hold passionate debate.
Yes your right, but in some accounts Set meets Osiris in the form of a boar whilst hunting in the marshes. Also much of what you say about the boar in relation to winter time seems to fit the symbolism of the underworld.
Whether boar related symbolism was grafted onto some of these gods or not, it was done so for a good reason. Sometimes the castration theme is implicite and sometimes less so. Perhaps Adonis holds the most powerful connection? Will do further research on Attis and boar relationship, but again it certainly exsists.
I strongly sense Britain to have had an agricutural based religion coming out of the late Neolithic/Bronze Age. The land clearences were also massive and must have had a profound effect on the thoughts and feelings of the population, the wild wood being swept aside in great swathes. Again the boar may possibly have been connected to this in some way re slash and burn clearence tactics and the wild pigs ability to clear scrub, but thats just an aside thought to muse, nothing more.
Ancestor worship was also very important and I believe holding continuity from the Mesolithic right up until the Iron Age. The Long Barrow period seems to have been the high point of ancestor worship. Perhaps the tribes having a sense of group mind and group soul?
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 18, 2008 10:42:28 GMT -1
Ancestralle, I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the wild boar symbolism in Cullwich and Olwen? It may perhaps also provide certain clues and again seems to link in with your views of the boars relationship to winter if I'm not mistaken?
|
|
|
Post by redraven on Nov 18, 2008 20:40:21 GMT -1
I strongly sense Britain to have had an agricutural based religion coming out of the late Neolithic/Bronze Age. The land clearences were also massive and must have had a profound effect on the thoughts and feelings of the population, the wild wood being swept aside in great swathes. Again the boar may possibly have been connected to this in some way re slash and burn clearence tactics and the wild pigs ability to clear scrub, but thats just an aside thought to muse, nothing more. Ancestor worship was also very important and I believe holding continuity from the Mesolithic right up until the Iron Age. The Long Barrow period seems to have been the high point of ancestor worship. Perhaps the tribes having a sense of group mind and group soul? Clearance of land could have been associated with rising sea levels at the end of the Mesolithic period and people living on the fertile plains now known as Doggerland, (thanks Adam ). They would have been displaced into the sparcely populated "mainland" (as it is now). We can assume that Doggerland had forested areas, obviously, because of the North sea oilfields, and they were in the northern section, humans were probably living more on the southern plains, hunting migrating wildlife, plus being closer to mainland Europe would give them the opportunity to move south in the winters. The rise in sea levels would have, I presume, led to populations becoming trapped here, which when you think about it, could be viewed as a ritualistic castration, the people being "cut off" from the European mainland. RR
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 21, 2008 15:18:01 GMT -1
When it comes to Britain as an island and how religion may have developed here in some unique way because of that fact. I guess it comes down to the question whether or not at some point in the early stages of the Neolithic/Bronze Age, did we specifically venerate the sun and the moon alongside our ancestors? Indeed was it the ancestors who eventually became a major aspect of a pantheon alongside deities of nature, the solar system and the elements, wind, fire, spring, river and sea etc
Megalithic art seems in the main to be focused on marking out periods of time in solar and lunar symbolism. Interestingly at this period in time there are virtually no humanistic god/goddess carvings within burial chambers or in other locations where we find cup and ring marks. But the sun and moon are very much represented.
So there is something important to consider here. If the concept of solar worship seems unacceptable, then nothing I have posted since joining this site will seem remotely worthy of any consideration whatsoever. But if the worship of the sun as a deity in itself does appear possible/plausable , then I believe many of the concepts that I've tried to convey over the last few weeks do indeed have more than a smidgen of merit.
So why the Neolithic/Bronze Age obsession with understanding units of time demonstrated at such places as New Grange? Again I believe this brings us back to agriculture and is yet another thread (there are many) that have led me to consider a sun/son twin and vegetation deity and that some of the religious symbolism to vegetation includes castration.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 21, 2008 16:51:50 GMT -1
i have been readng a good book - Gods with Thunderbolts by Guy de la Bedoyere - about roman british religion. he makes some very good points about looking back at the past and interpreting it.
where we see a shrine or temple because of a small deity statue - our ancestors might have seena rubbish dump, a caually dropped item, a small tradesman selling said item, a childs toy and a whole rafto f other perfectly plausible and mundane interpretations.
we dont know that our ancestors worshipped the sun. we can never know. the sun to them was a means of keeping time - we dont worship clocks but they are of huge importance to us. it may well be that alignments are simply means of assessing when planting time is coming. deity need not come into it at all.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 25, 2008 10:18:03 GMT -1
What I find quite amusing about modern, I nearly said Druidry then, but will stick to the term paganism, is what seems to me a desire for a totally unique religion unlike any other, its got to be utterly original. I find this very odd? If we look around the world, sun veneration seemed almost universal at one point, but we deny that it could have ever happened here.
The shamanic vision of Matthews seems to have been widely embraced and we borrow concepts to flesh it out from cultures that certainly could not have influenced Britain in any way shape or form, North America springs to mind. But when we consider who we traded with, who Britain came into contact with, basically a big chunk of the classical world, we refuse to accept any association. For example, mummification, we now know that we did it also, perhaps not for the same reason's as in Egypt, but again just how far apart were the mindsets behind its practice here and elsewhere? Yes it does seem to be more about ancestor worship, but could it also have been about concepts of life after death?
At the end of the day, for me personally, I could research things forever, (indeed it is an on going process) I could also remain cynical of what may or may not have been and always demand proof before making any decision re what I actually, physically do. But at some point you have to actually do SOMETHING and be brave enough to say, this is what I believe, this is my spirituality, this is my practice and if its entirely a product of my own imagination, then I have to accept that or never get out my armchair and actually start to live it.
Spiritual practice has its own evolution, I have done many things in the past that I no longer consider appropriate and have moved on. But to be honest, every single experience has been far more enjoyable (even the ones that now seem ridiculous) than reading a book.
|
|
|
Post by otho on Nov 25, 2008 10:51:08 GMT -1
Ancestrallee, I am living in Lewes for a short while and took the time on sunday to climb Mount Caburn, a local hill and part of the South Downs. Reading up afterwards it would seem over 100 pits were found on this small hilltop. The archaeologists of the time thought they were refuse dumps, archaeologists now have a theory they may have been pits used for votive offerings. At this point no one can tell for sure. All I could swear to is the dome of the hill is hollow in many places, there are spirits in the place and the view is breath-taking.
Stefan, I have been a northern tradition shaman for over 10 years. That is to say my main influence is with the northern spirits - I am not an odinist, nor does my practice owe anything to america. Climbing the Caburn I managed a fairly strong contact with a local spirit, a giant of a man. We talked and joked for an hour and he urged me to appreciate the Downs and the land around them. It was a good experience and was enough that we spoke frankly and both gained something from it. I do not need to know who he was, when or why. As you indicate, often its best just to do.
Very much enjoying this thread btw, perhaps not least because I spent some time this summer exploring new places with the aid of a boar. Not sure what that says about me though.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 25, 2008 11:41:49 GMT -1
If we look around the world, sun veneration seemed almost universal at one point, but we deny that it could have ever happened here. i dont think anyone here is denying it happened, only that we dont know and cannot demonstrate it to be the case. likewise, the theology you have proposed here surrounding it is conjecture with nothing solid to back it up. that is fine and well and works for you - i can the merits in new theologies such as this - but we have to be open in admitting that they are new and have no ancient provenance.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 25, 2008 11:50:52 GMT -1
Yes the boar holds great wisdom teachings, I'm not saying I have all the answers but its very inspiring to explore them. The serpent is also extremely important, so is the bull. These symbols I feel need to be researched far more and hold far greater religiousness in what that convey than many people seem to realize. I say that because I so rarely come across people talking about them or find them written about in any great detail in modern books on Druidry/Paganism.
For example I have been deeply researching the serpent for a number of years now and again find its multi layers quite mind blowing. From creation myths of the serpent coiled around the cosmic egg, squeezing it until it cracks open, to the ancient priestesses raising serpents aloft coiled around each arm that again remind me of the Order of the Pendragon teachings.
I watched a voudou documentary the other day with the priestesses passing a python amongst each other raised high above their heads, they then danced over it, legs ether side of the snake, very sexual and of a fertility/phallus nature. Voudou is again a very demonised tradition that I find very interesting and would love to know if voudou sects exist here in Britain like New Orleans for example.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 25, 2008 12:11:08 GMT -1
Yes the boar holds great wisdom teachings, I'm not saying I have all the answers but its very inspiring to explore them. The serpent is also extremely important, so is the bull. These symbols I feel need to be researched far more and hold far greater religiousness in what that convey than many people seem to realize. I say that because I so rarely come across people talking about them or find them written about in any great detail in modern books on Druidry/Paganism. For example I have been deeply researching the serpent for a number of years now and again find its multi layers quite mind blowing. From creation myths of the serpent coiled around the cosmic egg, squeezing it until it cracks open, to the ancient priestesses raising serpents aloft coiled around each arm that again remind me of the Order of the Pendragon teachings. I watched a voudou documentary the other day with the priestesses passing a python amongst each other raised high above their heads, they then danced over it, legs ether side of the snake, very sexual and of a fertility/phallus nature. Voudou is again a very demonised tradition that I find very interesting and would love to know if voudou sects exist here in Britain like New Orleans for example. yep, voudon groups do exist in britain. brixton has a couple of 'botanicas' (voudon supply shops kind of) the snake to them represents Ayowedo (i think off the top of my head) the creator and as such plays an important part of ritual etc. snakes in religion tend to be found in those countries with climates more conducice to reptiles, in northern europe our snakes are fewer and far between. if we had 4 metre pythons living in the UK i dare say that serprents would have featured more heavily.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 25, 2008 12:28:01 GMT -1
Yes, I think your right re our climate, but it still seems to have been very important here too. Pictish carvings, the ancient phrase, "I will not harm the serpent, the serpent will not harm me" related I believe to Priestesses around Imbolc time and the whole dragon thing, how exactly does that relate to serpents?
|
|
|
Post by otho on Nov 25, 2008 12:47:50 GMT -1
As a small aside the way the imagination works with spirit deserves a mention here.
In my experience spirit uses imagery known to the person to get its point across. For example I had a season working with a female deity who was guarding the animals in part of Ashdown Forest. She waxed with the potency of the sun in the summer, and has now withdrawn as the year has turned to winter. She taught me some shape-shifting techniques. She said her name was Bride.
There is absolutely no way of explaining that in terms of the goddess Bride as we know her, or of relating her to commonly held myths concerning the Forest. Nevertheless the contact was real and my skills have increased as a result.
My theory is she used a set of imagery found in my mind to establish contact and make her point. This is all well and good on an individual basis, but if I then say to someone 'Bride came to me, she was this and that, she said these things and has these attributes' I run the risk of polluting both my experience and established myth. The main issue would be the name given, Bride. If she had attributes in common with a more established deity, then that would also be an issue. You see the problem.
|
|
|
Post by jez on Nov 25, 2008 13:19:18 GMT -1
In AS religion, Sunne/Sunna is the Lady of the Sun, and Mani the Lord of the Moon. As with many northern cultures, the life-giving, warmth-bringing sun is female, while the moon, the one who chases, eclipses, and loves her is male and vibrant, giving fertility to the girls who bathe in the dew under his gaze and bringing blood to them once a month if they lie without a man.
--
Jez the Mercian heathen
|
|
|
Post by otho on Nov 25, 2008 13:22:30 GMT -1
Hi Jez. Nice to see another northern based individual.
Wasn't there some quote about the spirit energy of the sun compared to the actual sun itself. Something like 'Sunna to the gods, Sol to man' ?
In this instance with Bride it's the name that's the major stumbling block. I can well see how hard it is to untangle accounts and inscriptions.
|
|
|
Post by jez on Nov 25, 2008 13:25:59 GMT -1
Sol in OE means soil in modern English.
--
Jez
|
|