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Post by chris on Jan 31, 2009 17:58:50 GMT -1
Perhaps one man's bollox is another man's balls ......
I love Megli's posts.
I aspire to being an Ovaltini, me.
*grin*
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Post by Lee on Jan 31, 2009 22:23:23 GMT -1
Stefan,
where do you see yourself going with this Pendragon order Stuff then?
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Post by littleraven on Feb 2, 2009 8:05:03 GMT -1
I call foul on this, without a doubt in my mind.
I would suggest that this is penned by someone with a history of ceremonial magic, due to the rather obvious Egyptian influence. But an unhealthy interest in the 'Book of Coming Forth by Day' does not ancient Druidry make. What it makes is a forgery, and certainly a forgery nowhere near as inspired as anything Iolo penned.
I believe this is someone who has a ceremonial/occult background, who has seen the market for something more 'Druidic' and gone for it. Apart from the Egyptian influence, the ceremonial influence and the in yer face Greek stuff, standar neo-paganisms, we also have some terminology used that originates in obscure late twentieth century occultism. Unfortunately it's only obscure and 'esoteric' to those who don't have access to the same obscure sources.
It's a fantasy, no less of a fantasy than the neo-Druidic stuff that has been heavily criticised so recently. But as a fantasy it's worse, becasue at least OBOD and the like don't actually make any overt claims about the ancient lineage of what they, unlike this.
In short, this is having no more of my time.
Little Raven, llfyrion.
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Post by stefan on Feb 2, 2009 15:03:26 GMT -1
Let me say a little more about the background that I know relating to this book.
Thoth Publications: Tom specializes in getting hold of and re-printing old occult texts that have not been printed before. Regardie, Fortune Crowley, Golden Dawn SOL, plus Gardner, Sanderson related texts. Therefore the Pendragon material fits his particular interest of making things out of the public eye available. There is more Pendragon material, but it is highly unlikely that it will ever be printed. So the concept of someone playing a joke with the idea of leaving people on a cliff edge for the next exciting installment of the fraud seems somewhat unlikely.
I've been told the farm in the Peak District is known about where rituals were held in the 30's.
I believe Mark Graham, Bobcat, Philip Carr Gomm and I also seem to remember even Ronald Hutton got to see this book before it went to print, (I could be wrong about Hutton). An unusual thing to happen.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that its ancient, but birthing out the same period as the GD is quite interesting in itself. My guess is that it may also be Free Masonry influenced. Again it smacks of absolutely nothing from the 80's on wards and stands totally original within a modern Druid context. Therefore it has no hippie, New Age influence, Matthews, Celtic Shaman influence, Nichols or modern Carr Gomm OBOD etc. Indeed it does not appear to be influenced by the Victorian/Edwardian Celtic revival ether.
The only part of the book I find completely bizarre and unworkable are the Book Of Amrhan symbols, they seem more like Science Fiction than anything else, apart from the circled cross of protection.
So I'm looking around at the competition and what they promote. I have no idea what Bobcat stands for or what she believes? Greywolf, very much a Celtic Shaman. OBOD, self development. They seem to have no actual belief system that I'm aware of?
Pendragon material creeping into modern Druid practice: Bobcat has used the crushing of the egg in ritual, Krish Hugh's of the Anglesy Druids now uses the 3 fold death, nether credit where they got their inspiration from. I have heard people saying "Nothing is achieved without sacrifice" at TDN Camps. So like Morganwg, people are also starting to steal the Pendragon bits that they find interesting.
Finally I personally like this book but it is not ambiguous. I am tired of Druids can be anything they want. I'm tired of sitting on the fence and at least I'm up front about my influences. The Pendragon book has helped me clarify occult practice within my own belief system, I also love the creation myth. My need and desire is for a religious framework. So I have cobbled to this the vegetation sun/son god which I have talked about elsewhere. Again the Pendragon material clearly links to solar and lunar worship that seems Gnostic re the Oinacos. Bride or Brigit is my main goddess as daughter, supported by Anu as mother of all. Teutates, Taranis, Esus also create for me a father of all figure.
A personal fantasy, nothing more.
Stefan
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Post by stefan on Feb 2, 2009 15:07:30 GMT -1
BTW, if this book is an abomination to you, at least this thread has served to make you aware of it when you come across others making reference to it.
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Post by stefan on Feb 2, 2009 15:36:28 GMT -1
Oh yes I nearly forgot, I have also been informed that Ellen Evert Hopkins is intending to reform the Order of the Pendragon in America.
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Post by redraven on Feb 2, 2009 15:42:20 GMT -1
Stefan, Would you consider the close proximity, in a physical sense, i.e. in the peak district, may hold some of the reason why this book connects with you so strongly?
RR
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Post by Lee on Feb 2, 2009 15:47:09 GMT -1
can we be sure this is the direction the borrowing went in? if we ask when ERO started using the egg thing and check against publication of the book we can clarify.
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Post by stefan on Feb 2, 2009 16:11:32 GMT -1
Weirdly its closer than that. Colin Robertson hails from Loughborough, 5 miles down the road. Charnwood Forest butts up to Loughborough, I have a woodland cabin in Charnwood Forest, so we share an identical stomping ground and sacred landscape.
At the time of reading the manuscript I was close friends with both Mark Graham and Bobcat and I know specifically that she used the crushing of the egg for a women's sweat lodge weekend workshop. Mark Graham ran the sweat lodge and talked to me about the egg idea from the Pendragon being used.
Tom talked to me about Ellen Evert Hopkins being really excited about the book and her intentions to reform the Order when it first went to print, (she also read it in manuscript form) but I don't know if she actually did anything? Not sure what her Order is? But I believe she's a big cheese and well respected in America? She wrote The Druids Herbal.
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Post by stefan on Feb 2, 2009 16:21:23 GMT -1
Possibility of it being a modern hoax can only come from Nick Farrell, a ceremonial magician, occult author and member of Golden Dawn. Fits much of what Little Raven said. However many people have questioned him, did he write it and he staunchly denies having done so, but then I guess if he did, then thats exactly what he would say. But let me say again, I trust Tom at Thoth publications, a man of honour, who still has the other Pendragon material with no desire to print it, he's been sitting on it for years, but told me he has too many other fish to fry re printing other occult manuscripts. Believe me, I know this books background inside out. The only suspicions I have are related to Nick Farrell. He now lives in Bulgaria, I tracked him down on a blogg some years ago where he stated he was very excited about the material of an ancient Druid Order that he was helping to get printed. He made it clear it was not his own work.
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Post by redraven on Feb 2, 2009 16:32:00 GMT -1
Weirdly its closer than that. Colin Robertson hails from Loughborough, 5 miles down the road. Charnwood Forest butts up to Loughborough, I have a woodland cabin in Charnwood Forest, so we share an identical stomping ground and sacred landscape. I was just speculating that the close proximity to the supposed area where this grove held their rituals, if shown to be authentic, is responsible in some way, for the attraction of it for you. I suspect that may be, in part, responsible for some the sympathetic resonance you obviously have for the subject matter. Obviously, that is a matter for you and I wouldn't presume to ask you to comment further. RR
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Post by stefan on Feb 2, 2009 16:38:48 GMT -1
Obviously all part of the fascination RR, I want to be totally transparent about this, I have no agenda, I like the book and its content. Again I personally feel it has more substance than whats on offer today. I like the, this is what I believe stance, I wish more people would do the same. Rightly or wrongly, naively or whatever, just come off the fence and say, in the nowness of now, this is what I believe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2009 11:11:29 GMT -1
can we be sure this is the direction the borrowing went in? if we ask when ERO started using the egg thing and check against publication of the book we can clarify. I agree with this, even if you do trust the source of this information there is no harm in checking out a couple of bits, the Egg may be the easiest to do.
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Post by stefan on Feb 3, 2009 14:45:40 GMT -1
Yes I can categorically say Bobcats use of the egg in ritual was directly related to the Pendragon book. I don't think she resonates with the Order's teachings, but just thought that particular concept was useful to a rebirth ritual after emerging from the womb environment of the sweat lodge.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just an example that I'm aware of re the Pendragon material being used within modern Druid practice. Lets face it, who thinks about Iolo Morganwg when Druids chant the Awen?
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Post by littleraven on Feb 3, 2009 22:22:28 GMT -1
Oh yes I nearly forgot, I have also been informed that Ellen Evert Hopkins is intending to reform the Order of the Pendragon in America. Well, there ya go, must be genuine then.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 3, 2009 22:30:51 GMT -1
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that its ancient, but birthing out the same period as the GD is quite interesting in itself. My guess is that it may also be Free Masonry influenced. Again it smacks of absolutely nothing from the 80's on wards and stands totally original within a modern Druid context. Therefore it has no hippie, New Age influence, Matthews, Celtic Shaman influence, Nichols or modern Carr Gomm OBOD etc. Indeed it does not appear to be influenced by the Victorian/Edwardian Celtic revival ether. Again, there are things in it that originate in obscure mid 1990s esoterica, stuff that by design has no earlier source. Other stuff from the 1970s when 'Druids' didn't really know where their sources originated. A personal fantasy, nothing more. Which is cool, but in saying that how do you differ from the neo-Druids you recently derided for following a fantasy?
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Post by megli on Feb 4, 2009 7:10:34 GMT -1
Which is cool, but in saying that how do you differ from the neo-Druids you recently derided for following a fantasy? The time spent sojourning in the Sacred Copse of Eilonwy the Nut-Maiden is not fantasy! It is the true initiation of druidry and is in some ways key to the mysteries of the Book of Taliesin. What so-called 'druid' in the world today has travelled the wheel visiting the various stations of the sun of the ancient wisdom? 4.bp.blogspot.com/_C0HPaYdDG6A/SYlMnbpLSKI/AAAAAAAABMI/iTwlNFBi-CA/s1600-h/Untitled.jpgWho among us has charged through the forest with Torech the great boar, or learnt the sacred symbolism of the two axes of Arviragus the Centaur? None, I'll wager. Again the absurdity and shallowness of modern 'druidry' reveals itself.
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Post by littleraven on Feb 4, 2009 8:09:16 GMT -1
When the descending paths of the trifold clarity meet, then there will be a return of the dragon mind of Old! An end to such fallacy, there shall be!
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Post by Lee on Feb 4, 2009 13:18:53 GMT -1
Which is cool, but in saying that how do you differ from the neo-Druids you recently derided for following a fantasy? The time spent sojourning in the Sacred Copse of Eilonwy the Nut-Maiden is not fantasy! It is the true initiation of druidry and is in some ways key to the mysteries of the Book of Taliesin. What so-called 'druid' in the world today has travelled the wheel visiting the various stations of the sun of the ancient wisdom? 4.bp.blogspot.com/_C0HPaYdDG6A/SYlMnbpLSKI/AAAAAAAABMI/iTwlNFBi-CA/s1600-h/Untitled.jpgWho among us has charged through the forest with Torech the great boar, or learnt the sacred symbolism of the two axes of Arviragus the Centaur? None, I'll wager. Again the absurdity and shallowness of modern 'druidry' reveals itself. did you knock that image together yourself? see, its really convincing. i kid you not, you should get a googlepages website, put it together in one site as a cohesive whole and i shit you not, you can have adherants emailing you a: wanting to be part of it or (most interestingly) b: telling you they have been experincing the same thing and are wanting to put it together with you. candy meet baby, baby say goodbye to candy.
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