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Post by megli on Sept 20, 2009 10:55:51 GMT -1
Yes, quite: btw I hope I was clear that I wasn't implying that Clare was saying it was OK to do such things---she explicitly said that *wasn't* what she was saying. The wider question is one of relativism and the relationship between divinity and moral order. To my knowledge, no pagan group has yet come up with anything approaching a theology of moral action (what Christians call a theology of Justice.) Oh dear---you asked the million-dollar question LR: 'But a question arises, if you believe in Gods, spirits et al then why not a belief in magic?' One the one hand it's absolutely not the case that those two things go together: much contemporary conventional Christian theology would say that god, angels etc are perfectly real and existent, but that magic, in the sense of manipulating this nebulous 'energy', is baseless superstition. Personally also I've also become rather agnostic on the subject of gods/spirits as literal entities: having held a variety of opinions on the matter over the last few years, I realise that I simply don't know, and don't know how I could ever know, and that I don't really care all that much. I tend now to think of gods as our own images of the depths of life, including personifications of our own doomed instinctuality. The question of how 'real' those gods are is an entirely open one, as far as I'm concerned: it's an area in which no one's feelings can really be privileged over another's. I'm quite prepared to accept 'magic' as a form of inner work, of changing consciousness, of embodied prayer, or of symbolic connection to natural forces; but the idea that there's some mysterious undiscovered natural force out there that Debbie from Plymouth can harness with the aid of two green candles, a stick of chalk and a seashell is just bollocks IMO. And thus I reveal myself to you all.....as Cursuswalker!! Or possibly Megli of Many Colours!
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Post by clare on Sept 20, 2009 11:49:50 GMT -1
We’re dealing with too many different things here. For what it’s worth, Adam, I’m very appreciative of you sharing the event in this woman’s and your own lives because, as LittleRaven says, it is an example of real life. Moving into ‘theoretical musings’ who perpetrated the more evil act: the woman who transformed her child into an angel or the professionals who convinced her that she had murdered her child? Your discomfort, Adam, on having this intimate and terrible event discussed dispassionately speaks of your own sensitivity and of the ambiguity of the situation.
Megli, we can go all post modern or absolutist but I think it’s fair to say that the victor writes the rules. Thus a person is either mad or a leader and faithful priest for exactly the same act.
We are all capable of rounding each other up into camps. This country has become one of tedious box-tickers, all saying “I’m just doing my job.” Aliens or the devil or a virus didn’t suddenly inhabit the bodies of Germans in 193-something, or Hutus or anyone else who does something that they later become horrifically shocked and shamed over. Many of us as children will have done dreadful things for which we feel a kind of terror that goes beyond guilt and shame. Those hideous feelings, if allowed and carefully negotiated, are one way to wholeness as a human being. Sophie Scholl had her principals and she was brave and noble and died for what was right and she was a good woman. What about the character of Sophie Zawistowski, who had to make the choice over which of her children would be put into a gas chamber? How easy to be Sophie Scholl, filled with the knowledge of what is right and wrong. How much more difficult to live with our ambiguity. --------------------------------------
Sacrifice is a short term loss for greater gain. Handing over a dove to a priest is not much of a sacrifice. Abraham was content to sacrifice his son and that was a measure of his devotion to his god. Most people will say “Stupid Abraham, awful god,” but that was the contract between Abraham and his god. I choose not to follow anything that demands that kind of contract and conversely my return from those gods is fairly mediocre. ----------------------------------------
I do believe in magic though I don’t have a cut and dried formula for it. I’ll be wandering along to the Carmelite convent down the road to partake in the excesses over St. Therese anklebone. I’m not going because I believe the Perspex covered calcium of a dead and rather tedious young woman will cure my wonky knee but because it’s not often you get the chance to participate in legally sanctioned mass (geddit) hysteria. And, beyond the cynical archness, because there’s something there that is literally attractive, ineffable and filled with potential. The shaping of that potential may partly be what magic is.
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Post by megli on Sept 20, 2009 12:13:39 GMT -1
We are all capable of rounding each other up into camps. This country has become one of tedious box-tickers, all saying “I’m just doing my job.” Aliens or the devil or a virus didn’t suddenly inhabit the bodies of Germans in 193-something, or Hutus or anyone else who does something that they later become horrifically shocked and shamed over. Many of us as children will have done dreadful things for which we feel a kind of terror that goes beyond guilt and shame. Those hideous feelings, if allowed and carefully negotiated, are one way to wholeness as a human being. I agree entirely with this Clare. The question is, where do the gods come in?
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Post by clare on Sept 20, 2009 13:22:32 GMT -1
<where do the gods come in>
I suppose in the gods we choose and the manner in which we interpret them.
Jesus of the gospels would go and be with the nazis and hutus offering them love and forgiveness, which is so brilliant on so many levels it's difficult to know where to start.
Jesus of the fire and brimstoners would take pleasure in wiping them richeously from the face of the earth, hallelujia.
My gods, which many not be your gods, tell me different things and we have to choose which voice to listen to.
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Post by clare on Sept 20, 2009 13:27:41 GMT -1
Megli, I've just this minute begun an MA on the philosophy of religion and the questions that religious people have asked over millennia are extremely useful to Pagans. But. Those questions are based on Christian foundations to start with. My own foundation (today) is that I am essentially amoral, that there is no source of ultimate good or evil and that matter is equally wonderful as the soul, if not moreso. For myself, I have to learn Christian theology to know more about Paganism, but not absorb too much of the givens of Christianity.
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Post by megli on Sept 20, 2009 14:33:25 GMT -1
Indeed.
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Post by dreamguardian on Sept 20, 2009 14:49:06 GMT -1
I'm quite prepared to accept 'magic' as a form of inner work, of changing consciousness, of embodied prayer, or of symbolic connection to natural forces; but the idea that there's some mysterious undiscovered natural force out there that Debbie from Plymouth can harness with the aid of two green candles, a stick of chalk and a seashell is just bollocks IMO. Me too, if I'm honest. NEVER, now go & wash your mouth out ;D
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Post by Francis on Sept 20, 2009 14:59:01 GMT -1
Loads of threads in one here - I'll stick with the easier one I think.
What is magic- we use the term as though it's obvious what it is. I'm not so sure it is. Can you give me a few examples of what you think it means exactly.
We all know the basic drill. Raise energy, manipulate it and direct it at will. Energy in this context is problematic. I don't think we're talking about the same thing that can be measured in Joules, is at all times wholly conserved and the measurement of which is ultimately scalar. I think it's very unfortunate that people have used the word "energy" to describe the intangible magical effector. It gives the mistaken impression of a basic familiarity with what we're talking about, and is a complete red herring for the many who go looking for "scientific" explanations.
What can magic possibly mean? What are the sorts of scenarios, with plausible chains of thought to the consequences, that we could describe as being obviously magical? Would it be a trivial matter to even recognise any act of plausible magic. I don't think so...
I don't know what magic is - but I'm sure it's not miraculous. I don't know what the limits of possibility to magic are, but, although the belief sits uncomfortably with me, I believe the upper limit of magical possibility is certainly greater than zero....
So again I'd ask anyone to give me an example of what might be a magical act. Not necessarily anything you've seen/been involved with/believed happened - just an example of what you think magic might be. We use the term so loosely - even carelessly - and without definition, that I'm not sure we're all talking about the same thing - so it doesn't really make sense to declare a belief in its existence or not.
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Post by redraven on Sept 20, 2009 16:25:41 GMT -1
my time is sacrificed with sincerity i think it is the quality of the time which counts - i dedicate it to the gods There is no difference between the time you 'sacrifice' and the time given up to any other particular activity you may enjoy partaking of. Apart from the intent with which you use that time. If time is not a sacrifice, then why does the majority of the world get paid by the hour? There is no difference in the time you 'sacrifice' to the time given up to the parishioner sitting in the pew on a Sunday morning. This isn't sacrifice, if anything it's nothing more than an observance and something of a base requirement if any kind of serious intent is desired. The inference of this is that for a sacrifice to be meaningful, it has to be materialistic in nature. If that's the case, a third of the world is in no position to make any kind of significant sacrifice. Is it possible that part of the sacrifices made by human death is the sacrifice of the remaining time from the individual's lifespan to the Gods? RR (I am having a shit day, and part of this has involved my giving up some of my inferior time to a cause I don't much care for, so I may appear somewhat sharper than normal!)
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Post by redraven on Sept 20, 2009 16:52:12 GMT -1
Loads of threads in one here - I'll stick with the easier one I think. What is magic- we use the term as though it's obvious what it is. I'm not so sure it is. Can you give me a few examples of what you think it means exactly. We all know the basic drill. Raise energy, manipulate it and direct it at will. Energy in this context is problematic. I don't think we're talking about the same thing that can be measured in Joules, is at all times wholly conserved and the measurement of which is ultimately scalar. I think it's very unfortunate that people have used the word "energy" to describe the intangible magical effector. It gives the impression of a basic familiarity with what we're talking about, and is a complete red herring for the many who go looking for "scientific" explanations. What can magic possibly mean? What are the sorts of scenarios, with plausible chains of thought to the consequences, that we could describe as being obviously magical? Would it be a trivial matter to even recognise any act of plausible magic. I don't think so... I don't know what magic is - but I'm sure it's not miraculous. I don't know what the limits of possibility to magic are, but, although the belief sits uncomfortably with me, I believe the upper limit of magical possibility is certainly greater than zero.... So again I'd ask anyone to give me an example of what might be a magical act. Not necessarily anything you've seen/been involved with/believed happened - just an example of what you think magic might be. We use the term so loosely - even carelessly - and without definition, that I'm not sure we're all talking about the same thing - so it doesn't really make sense to declare a belief in its existence or not. I agree that the word magic is now so open to so may interpretations that it is almost meaningless. However, I can give you one example that fits my own narrow definition.... A lady singing a song in a field in North Wales in the company of like minded individuals with the close attention of some Welsh ponies. RR
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Post by Francis on Sept 20, 2009 16:53:43 GMT -1
(I am having a shit day, and part of this has involved my giving up some of my inferior time to a cause I don't much care for, so I may appear somewhat sharper than normal!) Sorry to hear that RR. I've just sat still and counted to 5000. I sacrifice that time to you, in the hope that it pleases you and in someway improves your day and mood. Do with that time what you will! What do you mean it makes no difference to you? I sacrificed it to you???!! I've lost that time forever- surely my loss must be your gain? That's what I decided must be true - it's my personal truth.... Well I hope your day improves anyway!
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Post by redraven on Sept 20, 2009 17:07:36 GMT -1
I've just sat still and counted to 5000. What, with your kids present? Did you anesthetize them? I sacrifice that time to you, in the hope that it pleases you and in someway improves your day and mood. Do with that time what you will! Does that, by default, indicate my change in status to deity? What do you mean it makes no difference to you? I sacrificed it to you???!! I've lost that time forever- surely my loss must be your gain? That's what I decided must be true - it's my personal truth.... Deities are notoriously fickle, so I am changing the terms of reference here, think of something more appropriate will you! ;D RR
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Post by clare on Sept 20, 2009 20:18:28 GMT -1
What is magic- we use the term as though it's obvious what it is. I'm not so sure it is. Can you give me a few examples of what you think it means exactly. We all know the basic drill. Raise energy, manipulate it and direct it at will. Energy in this context is problematic. I don't think we're talking about the same thing that can be measured in Joules, is at all times wholly conserved and the measurement of which is ultimately scalar. I think it's very unfortunate that people have used the word "energy" to describe the intangible magical effector. It gives the mistaken impression of a basic familiarity with what we're talking about, and is a complete red herring for the many who go looking for "scientific" explanations. What can magic possibly mean? What are the sorts of scenarios, with plausible chains of thought to the consequences, that we could describe as being obviously magical? Would it be a trivial matter to even recognise any act of plausible magic. I don't think so... I don't know what magic is - but I'm sure it's not miraculous. I don't know what the limits of possibility to magic are, but, although the belief sits uncomfortably with me, I believe the upper limit of magical possibility is certainly greater than zero.... So again I'd ask anyone to give me an example of what might be a magical act. Not necessarily anything you've seen/been involved with/believed happened - just an example of what you think magic might be. We use the term so loosely - even carelessly - and without definition, that I'm not sure we're all talking about the same thing - so it doesn't really make sense to declare a belief in its existence or not. Hello Francis, isn’t this all interesting?! Towards the end of evensong the priest blesses us and for me, that bit is magic. I am getting an invisible cloak of protection from a god. That may well be me ‘. . . changing consciousness at will.’ One part of magic is technical. From the Key of Solomon to Debbie from Plymouth, correspondences have been important. Do this with this at this time of day and you’ll get this. Debbie is changing her consciousness at will with her green candle, John Dee with his wax tablets. Debbie intends to get a boyfriend, John Dee to learn Enochian. In some way they’re appealing to an outside force. Language is, as always, a difficulty. ‘Energy’ is shorthand and it’s not measurable other than in the experiencing. Perhaps there’s a particular word in Olde Something Or Other to encapsulate that which emanates from a person or group, which is larger than that person or group, which is created for the purposes of changing something as an act of will?
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Post by littleraven on Sept 21, 2009 7:08:17 GMT -1
TBH, I think the nature of magic, although intrinsically wrapped up in the mechanics of sacrifice, should really be it's own thread for the sake of clarity.
When it comes to using the examples of child sacrifice in the context of Mediterranean culture, remember that it's *entirely* possible there was a totally different approach to children anyway than we could relate to. Perhaps most well known, the Romans were prone to dumping unwanted babies on rubbish dumps, Spartans would discard children who were not physically perfect. That clearly demonstrates a cultural attitude to children alien to us.
Considering this from a Brythonic perspective, what evidence do we have? Obviously there are foundation deposits, but AFAIK there is nothing to suggest an actual sacrifice.
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Post by Lee on Sept 21, 2009 10:58:12 GMT -1
time as a sacrifice, i think i have gone on about this before. it isnt. in my opinion.
i have roughly 5 hours aday of free time, time in which i am not asleep, in work or doing essential things in my day to day life. offering up a couple fo hours a day is no sacrifice for me - i have a surplus of time, i have plenty to spare. and after all, what i dont get done becvause i am 'sacrificing it' i can catch up on in my other spare time.
sacrifice boils down to wealth or life or both.
i can probably offer up £200 in a month and not feel much of a pinch, i might go without some frivolous spending or no impulse shopping but ultimately i feel no loss. £1000 in a month and i am really struggling. i wont have much in the way of food money, my rent will only just be paid. i will have to make serious cutbacks and compromises in how i lead my life. that is beginning to sound like a sacrifice to me.
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Post by Lee on Sept 21, 2009 11:08:01 GMT -1
i disagree. ethics and morality are social and cultural constructs; in the west we allow people to form same sex relationships and carry out sexual relations. we think this is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, it is 'right'. in the middle east many cultures look at this with utter disgust and condemn us for it. who is right here? us or them?
it is all about perspective. to us gassing jews is abomnible, to others is is a worthwhile passtime. it is the perspective we look at this from which determines right and wrong.
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Post by redraven on Sept 21, 2009 11:15:04 GMT -1
Looks like me and you are poles apart then Lee, . To give up materially would, for me, be far less of a sacrifice than my time. The idea of a material sacrifice is, IMO, more akin to earlier times, whereas today's more materialistic mass produced consumer economy makes materials in an abundance, therefore lessoning the impact. I believe this is a sure sign that the context has changed dramatically. As to the impact of sacrifice in terms of human life, this isn't so clear cut in my view, I am sure there are still cultures out there that probably do still indulge in such a thing, however, I am aware that living in a relatively wealthy society, my viewpoint can only be from context of the lifestyle I experience, so therefore, may not be completely accurate. RR
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Post by littleraven on Sept 21, 2009 11:22:57 GMT -1
To give up materially would, for me, be far less of a sacrifice than my time. The idea of a material sacrifice is, IMO, more akin to earlier times, whereas today's more materialistic mass produced consumer economy makes materials in an abundance, therefore lessoning the impact. I believe this is a sure sign that the context has changed dramatically. What you are describing, the 'sacrifice' of time, is simple dedication. If material sacrifice is less to you, okay. If so, tonight, burn £1000 in cash whilst dedicating it to the god of your choice.
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Post by redraven on Sept 21, 2009 11:31:16 GMT -1
What you are describing, the 'sacrifice' of time, is simple dedication. Nope, if I am spending 14 hours a day at work, which happens, and then I have to do the rest of life's activities of living, unlike some who know beforehand how much time they have free, because of fixed working patterns, spending an hour a day IS a sacrifice because I could be resting up for the next shift. If material sacrifice is less to you, okay. If so, tonight, burn £1000 in cash whilst dedicating it to the god of your choice. Send it over then, and I'll see what I can do. RR
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