|
Post by redraven on Nov 29, 2008 16:25:04 GMT -1
Moving away from Paul's original thread on Animal sacrifice, the posts got me thinking about the whole subject and not just in the animal sense. There is an opinion that a sacrifice consists of giving something of a material nature to the Gods. This giving represents giving something from your life, be it food, tools or the latest pagan tat you have just spent your money on. What have all these things in common? They can be replaced. OK, it may not be easy and if you give something that you have made, it may be near to impossible to replace it "exactly" as the original. However, a replacement can be found / created. For me, the "ultimate" sacrifice I can give is my time. If my time is spent studying the history of an area to make a "better" connection with it, then I have sacrificed my time to that area and, hopefully, any local deities. Now, why should my time be classed as more important than the ritually slaughtered animal you are about to give in honour to the Gods? Well, as previously mentioned, the animal can / will be replaced, but once given, I cannot replace the time given to deity. That, for me, represents true sacrifice, I have given that which I cannot reclaim and as such, it is forever in the possession of the Gods.
RR
|
|
|
Post by Tegernacus on Nov 29, 2008 17:10:18 GMT -1
puts me in mind of the early Christians, who's "sacrifice" was to give their lives to god, to give up everything and be a hermit/monk/nun etc. It's maybe not the ultimate sacrifice, but it ranks up there, above material possessions etc.
Perfectly valid I would have thought, as long as it is a sacrifice, you're not just doing it for something to do. When you do it before everything else, then it is.
|
|
|
Post by maglowyllt on Nov 30, 2008 18:45:53 GMT -1
A good point though I'm not sure it really qualifies as 'sacrifice'. Time is used up no matter what we do, and in your case of studying the history of an area, the time spent cannot really be considered a loss as at the end of it you have gained knowledge in return.
|
|
|
Post by redraven on Nov 30, 2008 20:26:14 GMT -1
A good point though I'm not sure it really qualifies as 'sacrifice'. Time is used up no matter what we do, and in your case of studying the history of an area, the time spent cannot really be considered a loss as at the end of it you have gained knowledge in return. Yes. I have gained, but that gain was through the act of sacrificing time to facilitate that gain. And I am coming to the conclusion that it is the intent with which we sacrifice our time, i.e. the study of an area, as per my example, that the Gods are really interested in. You really can't buy favour with a being for whom physical materials are an irrelevance. So the gain was made by the trade-off of time and intent. RR
|
|
|
Post by potia on Dec 1, 2008 8:58:01 GMT -1
I've been doing a bit of thinking on this myself and one of the things I've been thinkinig aout is the difference between an offering and a sacrifice.
To me a sacrifice has to be something that hurts to give it in some way. Yes that could be time but it could also be a treasured item. The item itself could be something that could be replaced to some extent but if it has sentimental value attached to it then it's value is more than physical. Much of what I offer are gifts that are replaceable but sometimes I do make sacrifices and these are things that while they could be replaced on some level it hurts to give them.
It is not easy for another person to be able to judge when an offering becomes a sacrifice to someone else.
|
|
|
Post by Craig on Dec 1, 2008 12:15:04 GMT -1
One thing one might consider sacrificing is a negative behaviour, habit or attitude.
Moving to a more positive one, or doing more with less is something your gods might well consider a show of growth and wisdom attained.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Dec 1, 2008 16:33:05 GMT -1
There is a vast difference between votive offerings and sacrifice. It also depends on what you believe. Sacrifice of your time is something everyone makes who intends to excel, a footballer, artist, musician, Doctor or within a religious context, monk, hermit etc.
In my understanding of sacrifice, blood was of prime importance. Blood contained spirit, to let blood freed the spirit to the will of whoever made the sacrifice or for whom the sacrifice was made, be that an individual or a tribe.
Some modern traditions and religions seem to have replaced blood with red wine.
Another form of sacrifice was to take something negative into the underworld or away from the people, sin, back luck, disease, misfortune. Be that a scapegoat, fool, replacement chief or king, or the example of Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world. This negativity was placed onto the sacrifice.
For me, my time, energy, effort etc is not a sacrifice, I wanted to do it so who do I think I'm kidding? The earth sacrifices itself to humanity everyday and that usually means something dies, be that natural resources or food of one form or another. Ancient religions saw death within ritual as sacrifice, anything less would have seemed merely part and parcel of the commitment to an individuals quality of life, be that 10 hours a day research into British religions or 10 hours a day in meditation.
On one level nothing is achieved without sacrifice, on another, today, you are breaking the law.
|
|
|
Post by aelfarh on Dec 1, 2008 17:31:19 GMT -1
On breaking the law you're talking about human sacrifice?
|
|
|
Post by maglowyllt on Dec 1, 2008 17:35:39 GMT -1
I am completely in agreement that this is what the gods are primarily interested in - these acts better oneself and honour the gods in that way, but I still do not think that it should be called a sacrifice. Also if sacrifice material goods it isnt really an attemp to 'buy off' the gods just an expression of devotion by giving up something I own. I will stress the point however that I agree with you that a devotion of time and Intent is more important.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 1, 2008 22:21:26 GMT -1
i cant say i am sure about time as an offering, after all, there is a lot of it to go around if you want to. whilst it is true that time spent on something cant be gotten back, you can certainly make time elsewhere to 'catch up' as it were.
a sacrifice to me would be every penny of my wages for a month: not paying any rent or any bills, whilst it will cause problems i can catch up and sort things out but it will take a couple more months of a very tight budget to get back to where i was before. alternatively a custom made piece of jewellery which costs hundreds of pounds cast in Thames or suchalike, probably borderline offering-sacrifice.
while intent is all good and well, a £500 watch thrown into the thames expresses that intent far more than a bunch of flowers.
|
|
|
Post by Craig on Dec 2, 2008 7:25:56 GMT -1
Some modern traditions and religions seem to have replaced blood with red wine. Possibly because the new Age spiritualities of the 70's, 80's and 90's are dominated by the middle classes? I don't see pouring a glass of Bordeaux into the soil as a 'sacrifice'. It's just tipping the hat. I sacrifice blood 2-3 times per year to the National Blood Transfusion Service. That way it does some real good.
|
|
|
Post by maglowyllt on Dec 2, 2008 17:38:21 GMT -1
I find a small offering of blood a good way of physically linking with the earth and the gods as well as spiritually - essentially sending a part of our essence to feed the earth instead.
|
|
|
Post by aelfarh on Dec 2, 2008 22:57:34 GMT -1
Sacrifice is a form of offering, but not all offerings are sacrifice. What is the exceptional thing about it? that is giving away something of great value, something that will modify our way of life in a great extend. It's not really important if it is time, blood, or a £500 watch, if it really modify our way of life, and really is something that we don't really want to give under normal circumstances, then is a sacrifice.
If I spend 3 or 4 hours reading, learning, meditating about the ancient religions and culture, but is something that I usually do, then is not a sacrifice, in the better case can be an offering. On the other hand if I spend on a daily basis my time watching TV, and have no intention or likeness to read or learn, and then force me to do it, that will be a sacrifice.
Sacrifice, also has three different purposes.
1) to honour the deities you are offering to 2) a kind of exchange for a favour to be ask 3) as a renewal of the living balance and forces of the universe
The first one is when the great faith, the reverence to a god(s) invite us to give something a great offering that enables us to be thankful of the blessings of even by worth of being choose by the god(s) to worship them. That of course have a relationship with the Christian, Budhist, etc. concept of a monk, who dedicate their entire life to that. But it not has to be permanent, but it has to be of great value.
This is the most common one, people tend to make sacrifices more easily if they know they are going to receive something in return. Somebody offers something of great value, expecting having something of great value in return.
The third one is when blood became important, ancient cultures (not only celtic, but around the world) at some stage of their development practice animal and human sacrifice, the main purpose is that they were giving the most valuable thing they have, their lives, as an exchange and offering to the gods, to ensure that the balance of the natural forces and the universe itself remain as it. Little by little humans were replaced by animals, and let's remember that cattle was something of great value not only to the individual or family but the tribe itself, so the human was not killed anymore, but the concept remains. A plague, loosing of the harvest, cattle sickness, or even ask to defeat an invading army upon which it's not possible to win on normal basis, or just to see that the tribe spring once more....all that were important issues tha will demand the life of somebody.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Dec 8, 2008 16:43:48 GMT -1
Anything physical, money, swords, images of deity even if made in solid gold is an offering. Sacrifice in the pure sense means killing something living, be that animal or human. Effort is not sacrifice, in ancient times you would have been expected to pull your weight or be banished. Laziness would not have been accepted, it would have made you a social outcast.
A statement like my comittment to this or that is my sacrifice would have been laughed at.
|
|
|
Post by jez on Dec 8, 2008 16:54:13 GMT -1
Sacrifice in the pure sense means killing something living, be that animal or human. I think there is a danger of falling into the Cain and Abel trap, here. Sacrifice is only valid if it involves an animal's death? I do not agree at all. What about the fruits and cereals, the vegetation and the woodlands? Do they not die when harvested? What about the concept of self-sacrifice? Do you restrict that to suicide? -- I offer sacrifice to my gods when I give them something which takes from me, when I destroy something which I could have used, when I burn food or cast it onto the sea, or when I pour out beer or mead onto the ground, or break a piece of beautiful jewellery and place the pieces into Flag Fen as a gift to my Lady. -- A sacrifice, in the pure sense, is what an offering becomes when I put beyond human use an item which humans could have used. -- Jez
|
|
|
Post by Adam on Dec 8, 2008 17:54:56 GMT -1
I offer sacrifice to my gods when I give them something which takes from me, when I destroy something which I could have used, when I burn food or cast it onto the sea, or when I pour out beer or mead onto the ground, or break a piece of beautiful jewellery and place the pieces into Flag Fen as a gift to my Lady. -- A sacrifice, in the pure sense, is what an offering becomes when I put beyond human use an item which humans could have used. -- Jez I'd pretty much go with that... I'm not even sure I would call the ritual slaughter associated with Eid, a sacrifice, since the meat is then distributed. Anything can be offered up as an offering, but there is another stage required for it to become a sacrifice and that must at least (at least to me) require that that which is offered up is now removed for ever from my use and reach. I almost hate to say it, but with a few caveats (and errors) I quite like this opening paragraph on this RC website www.newadvent.org/cathen/13309a.htm ...particularly
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Dec 9, 2008 9:09:41 GMT -1
The purest form of sacrifice is symbolic. Represented in myth. Jesus Christ never exsisted in the flesh, his myth conveyed the meaning of sacrifice, death and rebirth. This myth is taken from older pagan myths of the dying and rising god man. Look at other pagan gods, hardly any of them have an associated sacrifice myth, be that Cernunnos or whoever. Again its mainly to do with vegetation and the harvest and developed into the human spiritual journey towards enlightenment.
The sacrifice was nearly always male, as far as I'm aware no bog bodies for example are female. Human sacrifice was a direct representation of the dying and rising god man. Why were sacrifices placed in water? Because they were cast down into the underworld. The holy trinity Taranis, Esus, Teutates were also directly related to beliefs in life after death, indeed a form of 3 fold death to whom sacrifices were made. Sacrifice is more than just appeasing that which you fear. Sacrifices were schooled, conversed with by the priests who had functions for them to perform in the otherworld, messages to tell the gods and treated like royalty, held to be sacred, held in awe by the tribe who knew that at some point in the future they were to meet the gods on their behalf at a specific time. So the gods were sacrificed in mythical wisdom teachings and human beings played out those myths in real life. Perhaps our ancient priests were simply murderers holding complete power and control over the people. If they had any shadow of doubt about what they were doing, then indeed sacrifice does become murder. On the other hand they may have had a certainty of belief that we could not even dream of today, their dogma was absolute.
|
|
|
Post by jez on Dec 9, 2008 10:19:42 GMT -1
The purest form of sacrifice is symbolic. Represented in myth. Jesus Christ never exsisted in the flesh, his myth conveyed the meaning of sacrifice, death and rebirth. This myth is taken from older pagan myths of the dying and rising god man. Look at other pagan gods, hardly any of them have an associated sacrifice myth, be that Cernunnos or whoever. Again its mainly to do with vegetation and the harvest and developed into the human spiritual journey towards enlightenment. The sacrifice was nearly always male, as far as I'm aware no bog bodies for example are female. Human sacrifice was a direct representation of the dying and rising god man. Why were sacrifices placed in water? Because they were cast down into the underworld. The holy trinity Taranis, Esus, Teutates were also directly related to beliefs in life after death, indeed a form of 3 fold death to whom sacrifices were made. Sacrifice is more than just appeasing that which you fear. Sacrifices were schooled, conversed with by the priests who had functions for them to perform in the otherworld, messages to tell the gods and treated like royalty, held to be sacred, held in awe by the tribe who knew that at some point in the future they were to meet the gods on their behalf at a specific time. So the gods were sacrificed in mythical wisdom teachings and human beings played out those myths in real life. Perhaps our ancient priests were simply murderers holding complete power and control over the people. If they had any shadow of doubt about what they were doing, then indeed sacrifice does become murder. On the other hand they may have had a certainty of belief that we could not even dream of today, their dogma was absolute. Can you actually provide evidence for any of this? For example, there are lots of female bog bodies, many with shaved heads... Only sacrifices placed in bogs will have survived - we have no idea whether or not others were excarnated, or burned, or hanged for that matter... "The holy trinity Taranis, Esus, Teutates were also directly related to beliefs in life after death" comes from where, exactly? "Sacrifices were schooled, conversed with by the priests who had functions for them to perform in the otherworld, messages to tell the gods and treated like royalty, held to be sacred, held in awe by the tribe who knew that at some point in the future they were to meet the gods on their behalf at a specific time." Where do you get the evidence for this? -- No offence, but I've seen the same sort of stuff trotted out on heathen web-fora, and the evidence there is equally thin, or indeed, unsound (or in many cases untrue). -- Jez - resident picky sceptic...
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Dec 9, 2008 11:09:44 GMT -1
Goodness, it would take me ages to evidence the knowledge/details that have filterd through to eventually stick in my head. At work at moment, so unable to do so.
Was not aware of any female bog bodies, those I saw in the Dublin museum and Lindow man etc all male. So perhaps female bog bodies must come from Scandinavia?
I guess it comes back to religion and dogma again. For me scarifices were directly related to religious theology. The personal opinions I have been hearing here seem to reinforce to me the anarchistic state of modern paganism, i.e. it can mean anything the individual wants it to and all seem related to modern day living. That was not the case in ancient times. Today there is little or no religious understanding of sacrifice related to wisdom teachings, or they are just simply ignored, so interpretations are as various as the number of people interested in the subject. ANARCHY!
Taranis, death by fire, Teutates, death by drowning, Esus, death by crucifixion on a tree. Do I need to explain these doorways to the otherworld? Not being funny here, but it would take me a long time. Sacrifice is implicit to belief in life after death or there would be no point. Athesist's do not have the romotest interest in concieving why someone would be sacrificed. If your sending someone to the gods why not get him to do your bidding when he gets there?
|
|