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Post by Francis on Jul 13, 2009 11:06:47 GMT -1
I might have mentioned this before when it was just an idea? Anyway Carnedd Uchaf (a mountain in Snowdonia) is to be officially renamed Carnedd Gwenllian on the 26th of September this year. This is in honour of the daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, not the alleged author of the mabinogion  - although I think Gwenllian ferch Gruffydd perhaps has a better claim to such a memorial? What do you think of renaming features of the landscape? I'm uncomfortable with it. Okay Carnedd Uchaf isn't very imaginative, evocative or even accurate - but Carnedd Uchaf is Carnedd Uchaf. Carnedd Llewelyn is a place I spend a fair few nights a year, and I would love to know its older name or names. Often I've felt almost as though the name was in my mouth, but somehow I just can't seem to spit it out - I've no doubt I wouldn't believe any name that came to me up there, however "certainly", the moment I stepped back into the valleys! But up there...! I've been looking for the older names of Carnedd Llewleyn and Carnedd Dafydd for a while now but no luck - Maybe there on an old manuscript in Megli's old college library? But in general what do you think of features in the Landscape being renamed? New owners changing the names of ancient farms, ponds, fields and perhaps most commonly woods (not having a dig Arth but very interested in your experience)? I guess there's less of a risk of something being lost forever in this information-recorded age, but there's power in a name - I'm not certain what the mix is that conjures that power, but feel sure that all that comes with time is a big part of it... |
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 13, 2009 16:16:07 GMT -1
It depends on the age of the name. If the name was given during the dark-ages, or even before, then leave it as it is. Often the only clues we have about history are in the placenames. However, if it's a name like "Victoria Common" or "Nelson peak" then... definitely rename it. Especially if it's in Wales  |
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 13, 2009 16:19:12 GMT -1
I'm not a fan of the councils constantly renaming counties and such.. I live in Glamorgan, and I'm damned-well doing to call it Glamorgan (or Morgannwg) whether the boundry changes or not. Similarly with Gwent, Dyfed.. there was a thing on the news, complaining that tourism is being harmed because literature is still calling Pembrokeshire "Dyfed". WTF?
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 13, 2009 16:21:51 GMT -1
Carnedd Llewellyn = Aravius??: According to local tradition, a giant named Rhitta, the terror of the surrounding country, clothed in a garment woven from the beards of the enemies he had slain, was formerly the sole inhabitant of Carnedd Llewelyn. p132 of 'Notes of Family Excursions in North Wales', by J. O. Halliwell, 1860. This is like Geoffrey of Monmouth's 12thC story: "[King Arthur] told them he had found none of so great strength, since he killed the giant Ritho, who had challenged him to fight, upon the mountain Aravius. This giant had made himself furs of the beards of kings he had killed, and had sent word to Arthur carefully to cut of his beardand send it to him; and then, out of respect to his pre-eminence over other kings, his beard should have the honour of the principal place. But if he refused to do it, he challenged him to a duel, with this offer, that the conqueror should have the furs, and also the beard of the vanquished for a trophy of his victory." source: www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/8697/carnedd_llewelyn.html |
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Post by Francis on Jul 13, 2009 18:22:32 GMT -1
Thanks Teg
I thought that Rhitta fawr was associated with Snowdon itself - its full name being Yr Wyddfa Rhitta Fawr - (or sometimes not great Rhitta but the giant i.e. Yr Wyddfa Rhitta Gawr).
The stories of Carnedd Llewelyn I thought seemed to centre more on the giant Idwal (together with his daughter and her suitor, Ffrancon)?
But still very interested to get that ref. from you!
"Aravius" though? Perhaps Megli can reverse engineer that name back to something more brythonic - if that's appropriate?
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Post by Francis on Jul 13, 2009 18:24:28 GMT -1
Sorry Teg - just re-read that and it sounded really ungrateful of me! I really do hope "Aravius" is the key to uncovering an older name
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 13, 2009 19:28:13 GMT -1
no worries, I just did a quick Google. If it's wrong slap me for being so lazy |
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 13, 2009 19:30:18 GMT -1
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Post by Heron on Jul 13, 2009 21:03:27 GMT -1
The 'ar' makes some sense âr > eryr 'ridge' so 'Eryri' is more like 'high ridges' than anything directly to do with eagles. The same word as 'aran' in Aran Fawddwy etc. But I'm not sure about the rest of the word. |
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Post by megli on Jul 13, 2009 21:20:31 GMT -1
'Aravius' looks like an attempt to latinise Welsh Eryri: i wonder if G. orginally wrote 'Ararius'. (MS readings of the 'History of the Kings of Britain'--written c. 1137--vary on this point: one has 'Araunius'.) Anyway: it's probably one of those latinised Welsh names like 'Merlinus' (= Myrddin), Telgesinus (= Taliesin) and Loegria (= Lloegr) of which Geoffrey was fond.
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Post by Heron on Jul 13, 2009 21:22:33 GMT -1
I might have mentioned this before when it was just an idea? Anyway Carnedd Uchaf (a mountain in Snowdonia) is to be officially renamed Carnedd Gwenllian on the 26th of September this year. [.....] But in general what do you think of features in the Landscape being renamed? New owners changing the names of ancient farms, ponds, fields and perhaps most commonly woods (not having a dig Arth but very interested in your experience)? I guess there's less of a risk of something being lost forever in this information-recorded age, but there's power in a name - I'm not certain what the mix is that conjures that power, but feel sure that all that comes with time is a big part of it... Generally I'm against re-naming places because, as you say, of what is lost. But not in every case as Teg points out. And I must say that 'Carnedd Uchaf' doesn't seem to preserve much while 'Carnedd Gwenllian' is a lot more evocative and, in the future, will have preserved something about the need to our own age to link with a native past and make reference to historical figures in danger of being forgotten. I appreciate your desire to get back beyond the names 'Carnedd Dafydd ' and 'Carnedd Llywelyn', but if that turned out to be 'Carn Mawr' or 'Carnau Pigog' or something geographically descriptive like that, would this tell you anything more? The current names, after all, are a sort of ancestor worship in that they honour great figures of the past by relating them to prominent features in the landscape, keeping them alive in the living world as well as in books. |
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Post by Francis on Jul 14, 2009 9:48:38 GMT -1
I must say that 'Carnedd Uchaf' doesn't seem to preserve much I wonder about this though...Carnedd Uchaf is far from the highest cairned peak of the massif it's part of. It's name isn't just a physical description then - I'm sure there's more. I appreciate your desire to get back beyond the names 'Carnedd Dafydd ' and 'Carnedd Llywelyn', but if that turned out to be 'Carn Mawr' or 'Carnau Pigog' or something geographically descriptive like that, would this tell you anything more? The current names, after all, are a sort of ancestor worship in that they honour great figures of the past by relating them to prominent features in the landscape, keeping them alive in the living world as well as in books. I agree - but it's not just the name that's half formed in my mouth after a night up there - there's a story I can't quite spit out, a mood that I just can't quite feel - it feels like not being able to sympathise with a strong but unknowable unexplained emotion. I agree with what you say about honouring great figures of our past - but which figures? I don't know if Carnedd Llewelyn and C. Dafydd are named after Llewelyn Fawr and Dafydd ap Llewelyn, or Llewelyn ap Gruffudd and his brother Dafydd ap Gruffudd? I don't think anyone really does anymore - different authorities claim either one or the other, a combination of the two or that it's no longer known. I was once told about a connection between the pattern of the peaks of the carneddau and the ancient astrologers of Wales. Do you know anything about this? while 'Carnedd Gwenllian' is a lot more evocative and, in the future, will have preserved something about the need to our own age to link with a native past and make reference to historical figures in danger of being forgotten. How long before we forget which Gwenllian we're honouring, let alone what that peak was the highest of? I'm moaning but I do love seeing Llewelyn, Dafydd and Gwenllian in the landscape. Honouring them as ancestors of place and no doubt the smallest amount of blood is important to me and part of my practice. My son is named Dafydd for a reason! |
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Post by megli on Jul 14, 2009 12:32:33 GMT -1
I was once told about a connection between the pattern of the peaks of the carneddau and the ancient astrologers of Wales. Do you know anything about this? What ancient astrologers?! |
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Post by Francis on Jul 14, 2009 14:53:39 GMT -1
What ancient astrologers?! Of course I meant astronomers - although no doubt that's a relatively recent distinction. I was thinking of Gwyn ab Nudd and the two other "Distinguished Astronomers of Britain" as described in The Triads - I can't remember their names but I guess easy enough to google? Edit - I know nothing of the validity or provenance of that triad though |
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Post by Francis on Jul 14, 2009 14:56:04 GMT -1
'Aravius' looks like an attempt to latinise Welsh Eryri: i wonder if G. orginally wrote 'Ararius'. (MS readings of the 'History of the Kings of Britain'--written c. 1137--vary on this point: one has 'Araunius'.) Anyway: it's probably one of those latinised Welsh names like 'Merlinus' (= Myrddin), Telgesinus (= Taliesin) and Loegria (= Lloegr) of which Geoffrey was fond. Thanks for that Megli |
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Post by megli on Jul 14, 2009 18:17:44 GMT -1
What ancient astrologers?! Of course I meant astronomers - although no doubt that's a relatively recent distinction. I was thinking of Gwyn ab Nudd and the two other "Distinguished Astronomers of Britain" as described in The Triads - I can't remember their names but I guess easy enough to google? Edit - I know nothing of the validity or provenance of that triad though Iolo! |
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Post by Francis on Jul 14, 2009 19:07:06 GMT -1
Oh sloblocks - even as I trotted it out I feared as much! I've been wracking my brain about where I heard this and I've a feeling it was Kris Hughes (ADO - although I guess that's perhaps now defunct?). Unfortunatley I'm struggling to remember much. I'd been plied with too much mead for one innocent of drink like myself and was faking sobriety. I seem to remember though it was something to do with some work of Wil Ifan o Fon and possibly it was Idwal who was the astronomer?? Anyway I shall try and contact him and see if he can put me straight. |
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Post by Heron on Jul 14, 2009 19:53:06 GMT -1
I agree with what you say about honouring great figures of our past - but which figures? I don't know if Carnedd Llewelyn and C. Dafydd are named after Llewelyn Fawr and Dafydd ap Llewelyn, or Llewelyn ap Gruffudd and his brother Dafydd ap Gruffudd? I don't think anyone really does anymore - different authorities claim either one or the other, a combination of the two or that it's no longer known. I'd opt for the former, which does seem to be the consensus, even if scholarly caution does not insist upon it. It might jog some into enquiring about who Gwenllian was and what she represents - the exiled feminine spirit of Wales in some reconstructions of her ( see e.g. www.castlewales.com/gwen.html ) But you are right to be a little sniffy about this re-naming process too. Once the politicians get the habit they'll be naming them after each other  |
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Post by megli on Jul 16, 2009 10:51:20 GMT -1
Oh sloblocks - even as I trotted it out I feared as much! I've been wracking my brain about where I heard this and I've a feeling it was Kris Hughes (ADO - although I guess that's perhaps now defunct?). Unfortunatley I'm struggling to remember much. I'd been plied with too much mead for one innocent of drink like myself and was faking sobriety. I seem to remember though it was something to do with some work of Wil Ifan o Fon and possibly it was Idwal who was the astronomer?? Idris the Giant, actually. Gwydion was another. But this is a late triad, one of Iolo's fakes. |
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- although I think Gwenllian ferch Gruffydd perhaps has a better claim to such a memorial?
