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Post by Francis on Dec 5, 2009 16:10:50 GMT -1
Sell your house - buy a tent and this anyone? www.johnclegg.co.uk/site/uploads/pdf/hailes-wood_1872588901.pdfYou know it makes sense  . Massively undervalued wood (some muppet is valuing it as a forestry investment only i.e. timber value). Amazing history -iron age fort refortified in the 12th century. Large areas of small leaf lime - very rare now in most places- was the dominant tree of the original wildwood, but human action caused oak to be favoured from well before roman times. Pockets survived in many places but usually gone by medieval period. Here Lime survived becaus it's the best wood for intricate carving - this woodland was owned by the nearby abbey who favoured the lime because they used it to carve figurines to sell to pilgrims. I spent 10 weeks living in this wood in my early twenties and it is a very special place. Well worth a visit if you live nearby. |
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Post by Midori on Dec 6, 2009 1:20:39 GMT -1
Wonderful. Think of camping in the Hillfort.
Cheers, Midori
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Post by Heron on Dec 6, 2009 13:59:58 GMT -1
Sell your house - buy a tent and this anyone? www.johnclegg.co.uk/site/uploads/pdf/hailes-wood_1872588901.pdfYou know it makes sense . Massively undervalued wood (some muppet is valuing it as a forestry investment only i.e. timber value). Amazing history -iron age fort refortified in the 12th century. Large areas of small leaf lime - very rare now in most places- was the dominant tree of the original wildwood, but human action caused oak to be favoured from well before roman times. Pockets survived in many places but usually gone by medieval period. Here Lime survived becaus it's the best wood for intricate carving - this woodland was owned by the nearby abbey who favoured the lime because they used it to carve figurines to sell to pilgrims. I spent 10 weeks living in this wood in my early twenties and it is a very special place. Well worth a visit if you live nearby. Looks lovely! Interesting what you say about lime trees. This would explain why, in the medieval Robin Hood ballads, 'under leaves of lyne' is used as a synonym for the forest. |
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Post by arth_frown on Dec 6, 2009 16:45:36 GMT -1
very nice, why do you tempt me with such delights?
I reckon a good business case could be put together for a loan.
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Post by Francis on Dec 7, 2009 13:36:22 GMT -1
Yes! And the sales particulars really don't do it justice. They emphasise the conifer plantings, even though that's a very minor element, and make each compartment sound as though it's dominated by much younger planted trees than it actually is. Interesting what you say about lime trees. This would explain why, in the medieval Robin Hood ballads, 'under leaves of lyne' is used as a synonym for the forest. In most places by the medieval period lime had been replaced - mostly by oak (acorns as food for pigs from the woodland floor, much better firewood, and the timber is naturally durable - all the remaining woodland had been intensively managed for a long time even by then). Odd pockets of lime remained here and there within the oak dominated woods (the inner bark of lime (bast) was used for making baskets and later woven seat tops and intricate carvings - but all uses of lime were much less common then than some of curretn popular literature on the subject sugests. Do you think it's possible that the 'poetic' use of lime in the medieval period could have perhaps implied more than just woodland in general? Groves of lime were already relatively rare in most places - might they have been recognised as something wilder than the then commonplace intensely managed oak/hazel woods (which would have seemed very domestic and familiar places to the people of the time - to them more like tesco is to us, not at all a wild place)? The groves of lime with their more immediate and direct continuity with the original wildwood would have seemed and felt much more raw and wild. Obviously I'm not implying any pagan intent on the part of those christain medievals, but the different feel of 'The Lime' would surely have been known and perhaps reflected in the writings of the time? I haven't a clue! I'm just wildly speculating and interested to hear if that sounds at all plausible in the light of your's and Megli's knowledge of the literature of that period? (Obviously from Norman times the term 'forest' was a very specific legal issue - and very distinct from woodland (not even implying trees being present) - was this very clear difference adhered to in the ballads/poems/literature of the time? Or would terms for woodland and forest be used quite casually and interchangeably as they would be today?) My thinking is that perhaps if they weren't casual in their use of terms for woodland then when they used a term like forest/woodland/Lime (in the vernacular of the time) we can assume they did have something specific in mind - and perhaps describing a place as Lime might indicate something more than just forest? Probably not - but I've typed it out now so I might as well send it! |
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Post by Francis on Dec 7, 2009 13:38:58 GMT -1
very nice, why do you tempt me with such delights? I reckon a good business case could be put together for a loan. Hi Arth I'm intrigued! What do you have in mind?  ? |
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Post by arth_frown on Dec 7, 2009 15:34:51 GMT -1
very nice, why do you tempt me with such delights? I reckon a good business case could be put together for a loan. Hi Arth I'm intrigued! What do you have in mind? ? With all that standing wood plenty of woodland craft related stuff. Craft courses. Opportunity for those to camp in and around the hill fort. Could a good market for reconstructing a round house and renting it out as a eco friendly unusual holiday. Renting the woods out to related activities like Bushcraft, Forest school etc. Should be a nice income for someone |
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Post by Heron on Dec 7, 2009 19:33:07 GMT -1
In most places by the medieval period lime had been replaced - mostly by oak (acorns as food for pigs from the woodland floor, much better firewood, and the timber is naturally durable - all the remaining woodland had been intensively managed for a long time even by then). Odd pockets of lime remained here and there within the oak dominated woods (the inner bark of lime (bast) was used for making baskets and later woven seat tops and intricate carvings - but all uses of lime were much less common then than some of curretn popular literature on the subject sugests. Do you think it's possible that the 'poetic' use of lime in the medieval period could have perhaps implied more than just woodland in general? Groves of lime were already relatively rare in most places - might they have been recognised as something wilder than the then commonplace intensely managed oak/hazel woods (which would have seemed very domestic and familiar places to the people of the time - to them more like tesco is to us, not at all a wild place)? The groves of lime with their more immediate and direct continuity with the original wildwood would have seemed and felt much more raw and wild. Obviously I'm not implying any pagan intent on the part of those christain medievals, but the different feel of 'The Lime' would surely have been known and perhaps reflected in the writings of the time? I haven't a clue! I'm just wildly speculating and interested to hear if that sounds at all plausible in the light of your's and Megli's knowledge of the literature of that period? (Obviously from Norman times the term 'forest' was a very specific legal issue - and very distinct from woodland (not even implying trees being present) - was this very clear difference adhered to in the ballads/poems/literature of the time? Or would terms for woodland and forest be used quite casually and interchangeably as they would be today?) My thinking is that perhaps if they weren't casual in their use of terms for woodland then when they used a term like forest/woodland/Lime (in the vernacular of the time) we can assume they did have something specific in mind - and perhaps describing a place as Lime might indicate something more than just forest? Probably not - but I've typed it out now so I might as well send it! Fascinating topic! The use of limes as a synonym for the forest is quite common in those Robin Hood ballads though there are some references to oak too. There is a particular oak that is mentioned as a trysting place but the limes tend to indicate the places they can go to hide, so probably does refer to the original wildwood. These ballads are mostly 15th century, though the usage could well be older than that. They also refer to forest areas in the North of England, not just Sherwood ('Shire Wood') in Nottinghamshire but also Barnsdale in Yorkshire where many of the ballads are specifically placed. Even today you can visit bits of woodland in Lincolnshire which claim to be remnant fragments of ancient lime woodlands. Yes, I think the usage of 'lime' in the ballads (which are really outside the mainstream literary tradition, or at least the earlier ones are) might well be a generalised term for the Wildwood which could have continued even after most woodlands had been changed to oak. As you say, 'forest' often indicates a semi-wild area given over to hunting and maintained by foresters (a privileged grade of yeoman) rather than dense woodland. Robin calls himself a 'yeoman of the forest' in the earlier ballads (before he was turned into a dispossessed saxon earl in the 16th century and hitched to Maid Marian). But the greenwood proper would have been the place for an outlaw to hide. |
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