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Post by Brochfael on May 28, 2010 12:18:37 GMT -1
Some questions for you all:
How important are 'ancestors' in your spirituality?
What do we mean by ancestors? Is it restricted to lineage, can it refer to others and if so how do we differentiate between those who are and those who aren't? Can non-humans be ancestors?
If ancestors are important, in what way?
What do they expect of us and what can they do for or against us?
How opught we to provide that which is expected?
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Post by Adam on May 30, 2010 8:33:31 GMT -1
In terms of experience it is (for me) pretty much the whole of it...
I do not know how "ancestor" is defined (and one of the reasons I do not tend to go into huge detail about my experiences is that I tire of defending them against the mob who would seek to pick logical inconsistencies in an experience that I do not have the cultural milieu to interpret in any greater sense). I know that they interact with me every moment of my life from small ways to sometimes massive ways. I know that they protect me and mine and are a source of strength (in a very real sense rather than a purely metaphorical one)
I do not believe that all my physical ancestors become "ancestor". Some become included in that community of living ancestors, some don't... their "spirit" for want of a better would, goes elsewhere and becomes something different. Ancestorhood, in that sense is something earned.
What do they expect of me? That I live my life in an way becoming of a future potential ancestor. That I put my kin before all else and then my community. They do not demand obeisance, and in fact my relationship is characterised, on the whole, by a relaxed, informal but respectful exchange. But they do appreciate acknowledgement and I strive to understand a proper relationship. It has taken many years and many false starts, but understanding the relationship to be that of one with my ancestors has been the breakthrough point.
All ancestors I have dealt with have been human (though ancestorhood means they no longer are), but one in particular is so old that he has become something else entirely, something almost elemental, and is only ever approached via other ancestors.
I suspect, though this has not been confirmed to me, that the community of living ancestors is all ancestor... every sentient being that has ever joined the community. It is just that those who show an interest in me tend to be those who have had a blood relationship
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Post by potia on Jun 1, 2010 14:22:39 GMT -1
How important are 'ancestors' in your spirituality? Very important but also complicated. What do we mean by ancestors? Is it restricted to lineage, can it refer to others and if so how do we differentiate between those who are and those who aren't? Can non-humans be ancestors? I do not restrict to blood lineage when I talk about my ancestors. Part of the reason for that is that I have family members that have died that are not connected to me by blood and yet were very important to me such as my maternal granddad. Sometimes such ties are more important than blood ties. I do differentiate between the ancestors that I know something of even if only a name and those that are unnamed and unknown. I can learn something from the lives of individually known ancestors where the unknown are more distant I guess you’d say. They mean much less to me. If ancestors are important, in what way? The ancestors are my past, I learn from their lives, from the stories I know of them. Even where not much more is known than a date, a place and a name then the history of that time in that place becomes more meaningful for me. Remembering them is an important part of my practice. I put a higher level of importance on more recent ancestors than those of ancient past. What do they expect of us and what can they do for or against us? I have no idea what they would expect of us. None of my more recent ancestors were Pagan and in life some openly disapproved of that side of my life. I feel that even so they would like being remembered, being thought about. If they are in a position to do things for us then I would imagine they would watch over their descendants to some extent or another. I would hope that in general they would let us make our own mistakes unless said mistakes involved serious physical danger. In that case I think they can and will intervene to protect a descendant from serious harm. As to the unnamed and ancient ancestors I honestly don’t think that as individuals they would bother that much about us. If there is some form of re-incarnation at work then the unnamed choir of ancient ancestors could just as easily be reborn in current generations. It’s something I’m really not sure about though. How opught we to provide that which is expected? I think most of us would like to be remembered in some way and our ancestors are probably no different in that aspect. Beyond remembering them I’m not sure what might be expected or how it could be provided, or even if it should be.
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Post by Sìle on Jun 1, 2010 17:51:20 GMT -1
How important are 'ancestors' in your spirituality? ... If ancestors are important, in what way? In terms of spirituality, I am not sure. They are important, because I stand on their shoulders and I try to live my life in a way that honours them. My blood ancestors certainly affect my religious choices as, at first, I rejected the so-called Celtic traditions because of the sentimentality from one side of my family and instead took to the path of my other side of the family, but it seems it was not to be. What do we mean by ancestors? Is it restricted to lineage, can it refer to others and if so how do we differentiate between those who are and those who aren't? Can non-humans be ancestors? To quote from a similar post a few years back: When I refer to my ancestors, I refer to a diverse group of people. Firstly, I refer to those in my bloodline, i.e. direct ancestors such as grandparents, great-grandparents ... to that end, I undertake genealogical research as best I can. Secondly, I refer to my bloodline clans, i.e. those with a similar surname to myself, and my paternal and maternal antecedents in Ireland, England, America, France, etc. Thirdly, those who lived on the land of my ancestors, perhaps alongside them, especially when visiting those places. Fourthly, those who lived on the land, where I currently reside, before me, such as the Britons, the Romans, the Angles, the Normans, and so on. And, lastly, those with whom I may have an affinity. This category includes those whom I might hold as someone whose actions influence my ideals. Someone who as acted as I should aspire to. I am not sure this makes sense, but it's a very hard thing to explain. What do they expect of us and what can they do for or against us? This, I am not sure I can answer. I like to think they expect us to honour them in some way, to make them proud to be a part of their family; we are their legacy after all. How ought we to provide that which is expected? By living the best lives we can, by remembering our ancestors and keeping them alive in the memories of future generations.
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Post by Adam on Jun 2, 2010 8:48:11 GMT -1
I am of the opinion that our understanding of what it means to be ancestor has been pretty much lost. I'm left with pretty much solo UPG in the matter, but I do find some common points of reference in anthropological articles etc that lead me to hope that I am not simply in need of anti-psychotic medication ;D
I think a common mistake in neo-paganism is to relegate ancestor to the dead, to adopt a genealogical understanding of the term. I believe (UPG) that the human to ancestor transition is not simply one of continuity (i.e. Auntie Joan is now ancestor because she is dead). My experience and (strangely) recollections are that death is more like waking up to what one really is. That it is more akin to finishing the book and stepping back into the bigger life. Ancestors are not just person continued, but person plus... as we always were, but realisation of Ancestorhood is the realisation of this "plusness"
I also very strongly suspect (UPG) continuity or perseverance of identity is many layered. That we, to adopt that model, can be understood as being animated not just by a spirit or spirit, but by many spirits, each of which undergoes different processes. So aspects of identity of self go on to await rebirth, while other aspects maybe add to the Spirit of Place in some circumstances (where the individual is somehow "totemically" tied to that place before birth). Others just "hang around" and dissipate, often leaving emotional traces behind... I don't have a full taxonomy and in fact I'm not sure that one is possible (it would only be an attempt to squash something beyond categorisation into boxes).
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Post by Rion on Jun 5, 2010 10:43:03 GMT -1
I particularly like Adam's characterisation of death as 'waking up to what one really is'. That fits nicely with my UPG. As for myself, I (perhaps mistakenly) tend not to think too much about the why and the how of the spiritual world. Perhaps tying in loosely with the discussion on sovereignty, I don't see myself as a 'druid' or a 'priest' or any kind of religious teacher. I have you guys for that Instead, I concentrate on practice. Every morning and evening a light a candle to my ancestors, and another to the household spirits, thank them both for their protection and ask them to continue it. Once a month, as Potia suggested, (or indeed whenever I feel like it too, but I make sure it's at least once a month at the dark moon) I make two cups of tea, leave one for them and drink the other while contemplating my ancestors, how they would want me to live, and thanking them for their guidance.
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 10, 2010 15:50:55 GMT -1
I believe that I have a duty to live my life in a manner that (hard to find the right way of expressing this) would please my ancestors and reflects well upon them. I have an inkling that their standing in the Otherworld is linked to how their descendants conduct themselves... I suppose it's linked to Jez's excellent saying "do only that which you can bring proudly before your Gods" - to me, it's the same with ancestors.
Maybe that's ridiculous, but it's just an inkling I have.
The most important ancestors are obviously those linked to me by blood, but I also consider some to be cultural ancestors - the great harpers of the past, for example - as I have inherited their tradition and aspire to attain some measure of their skill.
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Post by Craig on Jun 14, 2010 10:47:34 GMT -1
One way to look at ancestors is this: You are an Ancestor-to-be.
Immortality for each of us will begin with how we are perceived by, and what example we gave to, those we leave behind. For those of us that are parents this lesson is easily appreciated.
If you understand this then your life can have new meaning for you are leaving a path for others to see. The aspirations you achieve in your life may become spiritual inspirations to those who see and respect your life.
By striving to become better people in this life we are on the path to becoming remembered ancestors in the next.
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Post by Adam on Jun 14, 2010 20:51:40 GMT -1
But the original question asked "How important are 'ancestors' in your spirituality?". While I concur that to recognise and live with ones' ancestorhood-to-be is crucial, there is nothing in your answer that hints at any attempt at understanding that isn't available to anyone in the most generic context... everyone from Dawkins to the Pope can agree with that description surely? Are we to go down the path of reducing the spiritual understanding we are striving for to a psychological construct and seek ancestorhood in memory alone? I do note you said "one way"... I would just like to poke around a bit and see if you have any other ways...
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Post by Craig on Jun 15, 2010 15:43:50 GMT -1
I do note you said 'one way'... I would just like to poke around a bit and see if you have any other ways... OK then Adam. Ancestors are indeed critical to my spirituality. As with much of my practice I begin with myself, which is why I talked first about becoming an Ancestor. If one reflects on what one might become as an ancestor, what lessons you could give from your life, then you are closer to understanding what your ancestors are able to give. From my experience ancestors can come at us in many ways... In some cases we actually experience a memory of what an ancestor did, this could be a direct memory that we shared with that ancestor, or an indirect one where the memory is new because we did not or could not have shared that experience with them. For example when faced with a difficult decision, such as a moral or ethical one, I ask myself what my father would have done, and the answer often becomes very clear through a shared memory. I believe that in many cases that Deja Vu is in fact an ancestral memory coming forwards to make us think about the possible consequences of what we intend to do. There is the shared dream, whether conscious or sleeping, where we walk the path of an ancestor and see things through their eyes. This is why dreams are so important. People who try to force these dreams to come though often fail. If an ancestor wishes you to know something they will come, whether you invite them or not. And this is an important point. I often quail when I hear people recounting how they 'summoned their ancestors'. It's a bit like 'summoning a God' to appear. Are they so arrogant that they believe themselves that powerful? This is 50% self-delusion and 50% ignorance. From what I have experienced and learnt, ancestors are those who are ahead of us on the eternal journey. They may be connected to us though blood, geography, practice or belief. In any case they choose to help us out of love or duty, and their help is not always obvious. They cannot make us more than we are, but they can widen our view and show us truths and possibilities. I walk in the footsteps of better men. I hope that I can make them proud by my application of what they showed me.
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Post by redraven on Jun 15, 2010 19:55:16 GMT -1
As with much of my practice I begin with myself, which is why I talked first about becoming an Ancestor. If one reflects on what one might become as an ancestor, what lessons you could give from your life, then you are closer to understanding what your ancestors are able to give. From my experience ancestors can come at us in many ways... In some cases we actually experience a memory of what an ancestor did, this could be a direct memory that we shared with that ancestor, or an indirect one where the memory is new because we did not or could not have shared that experience with them. Inherited behavioural patterns could also speculatively be viewed as ancestral. If your ancestor experienced something that made an impression that affected their lives profoundly, then later generations may have inherited the equipment by which to experience similar things. Therefore, your ancestor would continue to influence your own experiences of life. And this is an important point. I often quail when I hear people recounting how they 'summoned their ancestors'. It's a bit like 'summoning a God' to appear. Are they so arrogant that they believe themselves that powerful? This is 50% self-delusion and 50% ignorance. I've never felt the need to summon anything. Far better to ask than demand, demands such as this remind me of the spoilt child syndrome with many demands being made without the capacity or will to understand the consequences of such actions. From what I have experienced and learnt, ancestors are those who are ahead of us on the eternal journey. Not at all sure about this. The fact that they came before us doesn't necessarily mean that they learn't or experienced enough to warrant the position of being ahead of us in this journey, unless you are thinking of this position in a strictly lineal time context. I think it's possible that some of them are not and being in a position to interact with us is actually symbiotic and promotes both parties. The idea that because these entities are experiencing existence in another realm doesn't, IMO, lead to the default position that they all must be more advanced than us. RR
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2010 5:54:47 GMT -1
One way to look at ancestors is this: You are an Ancestor-to-be. Immortality for each of us will begin with how we are perceived by, and what example we gave to, those we leave behind. For those of us that are parents this lesson is easily appreciated. If you understand this then your life can have new meaning for you are leaving a path for others to see. The aspirations you achieve in your life may become spiritual inspirations to those who see and respect your life. By striving to become better people in this life we are on the path to becoming remembered ancestors in the next. indeed! www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU9oPB81g_8paul
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Post by Craig on Aug 16, 2010 6:33:30 GMT -1
Hi Paul,
I'm afraid I have tinnitus so all those sods who were gabbling all through your song meant I couldn't make out a single word - sorry.
Any chance of the lyrics for us old folk at the back here?
Cheers, Craig.
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Post by Brochfael on Sept 20, 2010 14:46:53 GMT -1
Thank you everyone.
Further questions: Can anyone speak for the ancestors?
Can we expect others with different worldviews to respect or at least to show dignified bahaviour/treatment to those we deem 'Ancestors'?
If we take the view that respect needs to be earned before we extend it, how do the ancestors earn our respect?
Could this (earned respect) be a criteria for differentiation between 'the dead' and 'the Ancestors'?
How would you respond to someone who described revering one's ancestors as fetishising (by which I understand them to mean: ascribing irrational devotion or respect to) the dead?
If we can select which of our dead ancestors become 'Ancestors' (ie those we interact with or revere on a spiritual level) can they perhaps choose which of their descendants might be (spiritually significant) 'Descendants'?
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Post by Adam on Sept 21, 2010 18:55:26 GMT -1
OK... a very personal response here... and I always seem to have difficulty getting my meaning across on this subject but I'll give it a go Thank you everyone. Further questions: Can anyone speak for the ancestors? If you mean "are there those who can speak for the Ancestors" my suspicion would be yes. If you mean, can anybody, then no. I think that there might be a difficulty with a generic "the" Ancestors anyway. I do believe that their is a community of living Ancestors, who may have a variety of relationships between themselves, but there are also my Ancestors within that community who pay attention to, and show an interest in, me. Yours, for example, might, but probably not without cause for a relationship to exist. Can we expect others with different worldviews to respect or at least to show dignified bahaviour/treatment to those we deem 'Ancestors'? We can ask for it. It's hard enough to get them to show a dignified respect for me sometimes ;D If we take the view that respect needs to be earned before we extend it, how do the ancestors earn our respect? They have already earned it by virtue of becoming Ancestor. I do not believe that all who die become Ancestor as opposed to ancestor and I do not believe that who I deem Ancestor as opposed to ancestor is particularly relevant. The community of living Ancestors themselves are the judge of who becomes Ancestor, i.e. who becomes part of that community. Could this (earned respect) be a criteria for differentiation between 'the dead' and 'the Ancestors'? see above How would you respond to someone who described revering one's ancestors as fetishising (by which I understand them to mean: ascribing irrational devotion or respect to) the dead? My respect is for the aid they give me and for the inspiration they provide. It is what leads me to wish to become Ancestor and thus live in a certain way toward the community of the world around me and my kin. If we can select which of our dead ancestors become 'Ancestors' (ie those we interact with or revere on a spiritual level) can they perhaps choose which of their descendants might be (spiritually significant) 'Descendants'? I do not believe we select those who become Ancestor, but given the above, I do believe that they make choices as to whom they form significant relationships with. I also believe that Ancestors are only partially anthropomorphic. The process of becoming Ancestor is one of transformation, and the process of being Ancestor even more so, so the oldest Ancestors are most remote from being *human*. I do not claim to understand them or speak for those that interact with me, only for the experience I have of them. Does *any* of that make sense? ;D
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Post by Brochfael on Sept 27, 2010 15:05:47 GMT -1
Just to confirm I understand correctly here, The difference between Ancestor and ancestor is that teh Ancestor has had a significnat influence on the Descendant's life?
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Post by Adam on Sept 27, 2010 15:19:51 GMT -1
To me, no. More that they are Ancestor by virtue of a particular state of being that involves a perseverance of identity and ability to act. They may or may not choose to act in a descendants life. It wouldn't be a defining criteria for Ancestorhood, though by definition the ones we tend to have relationships with are the ones that are likely to influence us most. (a)ncestor is simply a genealogical status. (A)ncestor is an ontological one. Being Ancestor or otherwise is not a status that is defined by the descendant. And not all (a)ncestors are (A)ncestors.
But I haven't really met or conversed with anyone who thinks in the same way.
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Post by redraven on Sept 27, 2010 19:07:17 GMT -1
To me, no. More that they are Ancestor by virtue of a particular state of being that involves a perseverance of identity and ability to act. They may or may not choose to act in a descendants life. It wouldn't be a defining criteria for Ancestorhood, though by definition the ones we tend to have relationships with are the ones that are likely to influence us most. (a)ncestor is simply a genealogical status. (A)ncestor is an ontological one. Being Ancestor or otherwise is not a status that is defined by the descendant. And not all (a)ncestors are (A)ncestors. But I haven't really met or conversed with anyone who thinks in the same way. Actually, I can relate quite strongly with that definition. Biological lineage surely is tied to the physical and surely is of secondary consideration when considering the potential for information exchange. Genealogical status is tied to the Earthly physical realms and as such, provides us with a common set of tools with which to interact. How those tools are "tuned" to receive information surely cannot be subject to the sole preserve of genetic commonality between interacting individuals! RR
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