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Post by deiniol on Sept 11, 2010 21:46:50 GMT -1
Any theories on whom the Gaulish Dis Pater that Caesar mentions is? Allow me to quote myself: It's well-known among pagan circles that according to Caesar (IIRC), the Celts claimed descent from "Dis Pater". The identity of the god hiding behind this interpretatio Romana is, in my opinion, fairly solidly Sucellos. In the iconography of statues attributed to him ( like this one) he's nearly always depicted holding a long-handled hammer and a pot of some kind- both of which should remind us of the Irish Dagda, who had a magic cauldron and a massive club, as well as the epithet ollathair "all-father". In a number of images, these two attributes are accompanied by a three-headed dog (Cerberus), which lends credence to the Dis Pater connection. Additionally, we have the Welsh king of the otherworld, Arawn with his hounds and his cauldron of plenty. Indo-European cosmogonic myths (those relating the creation of the world), frequently involve a pair of twins, the progenitors of the human race, with one being sacrificed by the other. The sacrificed twin goes on to become the king of the realm of the dead, as the first person to die and go there. Etymologically, "Sucellos" is normally taken to mean "the good striker", coming from a form like * su-kel-dos or * su-kel-tos. If this were the case, however, we'd expect his name to be Suceldos, as in Gaulish -ld- remained so, rather than becoming -ll-. I would propose an etymology * su-kel-nos, with the old passive participle suffix -no-, which would give us the reading "well-struck one", which would match nicely with Sucellos being the sacrificed king of the dead. His iconography points towards prosperity and fecundity as well. As a chthonic deity, ruling the underground otherworld, Sucellos is also connected with fertility and agriculture: again, much like the Roman Dis Pater ( dis meaning "riches", like the Greek plouton). He is frequently paired with Nantosuelta, who I'll talk about in more depth later, but I can't help but seeing some kind of Prosperpina/Persephone relationship going on here.
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Post by Rion on Sept 20, 2010 14:16:50 GMT -1
Where are you quoting yourself from, Deiniol? Don't remember this from your blog...
Now, I'd always assumed that Nodons Tigernonos, purely due to the epithet, was Dis Pater. On the other hand, I had read evidence elsewhere pointing to Hades/Pluton (can't remember where, should start writing things down). On the other other hand (running out of hands), Ceisiwr Serith, while pontificating on PIE religion, states that Dyé:s Pté:r is/was a 'sky-father', which would point rather to Taranis, or indeed some other sky deity.
While I won't debate your etymology of 'Sucellos', who, then, is his twin? Who is the good striker that struck the well-struck one (try saying that drunk)?
Finally, while I certainly don't claim it to be an authority on anything, celtnet.org.uk describes Sucellos as 'our lord of the harvest'; an agricultural/hunter/forest/wine deity, with nary a hint of the underworld. While I certainly see your point, I'm uncertain the imagery of a club and a pot leads to your conclusion. What do you think?
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Post by arth_frown on Sept 24, 2010 6:31:38 GMT -1
I thought of him as the father of the tribe. The good striker makes me think of blacksmiths.
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Post by Rion on Oct 18, 2010 7:49:33 GMT -1
What with Samhain/Nos Calan Gaeaf/Sidobremos almost upon us, I've been thinking about death a little (not in a morbid way ). More specifically about including the Lord of the Underworld/Dis Pater/whathaveyou in some sort of New Year ritual (start a new thread if you feel like arguing about whether or not Nos Calan Gaeaf is/should be the new year in Brython). Deiniol has posited here and in a modern myth he wrote that the Lord of the Dead is Sucellos. Potia has written elsewhere about Belatonos filling this role, someone else mentioned Bolgios. Have we come to some sort of a conclusion, or are we simply content to leave the question open?
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Post by potia on Oct 18, 2010 8:01:32 GMT -1
Deiniol has posited here and in a modern myth he wrote that the Lord of the Dead is Sucellos. Potia has written elsewhere about Belatonos filling this role, someone else mentioned Bolgios. Have we come to some sort of a conclusion, or are we simply content to leave the question open? Actually I just took that name from one of Lee's myths in my myth. I don't think it's something that has been discussed before.
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Post by deiniol on Oct 18, 2010 16:37:13 GMT -1
Deiniol has posited here and in a modern myth he wrote that the Lord of the Dead is Sucellos. Potia has written elsewhere about Belatonos filling this role, someone else mentioned Bolgios. Have we come to some sort of a conclusion, or are we simply content to leave the question open? Actually I just took that name from one of Lee's myths in my myth. I don't think it's something that has been discussed before. And Belatonos, IIRC, is a creation of Lee's rather than an attested deity (it literally just means "Death": I think Megli suggested it). Bolgios might be appropriate, however, given how prominently his reflex Beli Mawr figures in the Welsh genealogies.
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Post by Rion on Oct 18, 2010 17:30:36 GMT -1
And yet he does so little in the Welsh literature, can we really ascribe any attributes to him other than that of Paterfamilias of Plant Dôn?
So: who is Bolgios? Who is Sucellos? Are they both lords of the underworld/death? Am I asking a question that others feel doesn't need to be asked?
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Post by nellie on Feb 10, 2011 16:07:38 GMT -1
Just been re-reading this thread and I'm wondering if there are any new thoughts on this? I've been trying to decide who I think Caesar was talking about too and all I've managed to do is confuse myself. I keep thinking about that P.I.E (or is it I.E? ) thing about the twins (my understanding is at a very basic level though! Now reading Deep Ancestors...) regarding one twin becoming the Lord of the dead. Is it right that the other twin becomes the first King? If Nodens is found as Nuada does that make Nodens the first King and a likely candidate for the twin of the lord of the dead? I don't think there's any echo of this in Irish myth is there? I'm simply postulating on the basis of what I've read (or think I've read - my memory isn't what it used to be after having kids!) of the I.E twins.
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Post by redraven on Feb 10, 2011 18:08:59 GMT -1
Just to muddy the water a little here, I seem to recall reading that Caesar stated the Gauls claimed descent from Dis Pater as a group, with the druids being the section of their group being the geneological descendants. Not at all sure Dis Pater was viewed the same by all sections of the "celtic" world. The druid connection obviously points to a Brythonic context, but I have read some discussions claiming Dis Pater may even represent an early monotheistic viewpoint because of this single point of descent.
RR
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Post by Lee on Feb 10, 2011 19:31:43 GMT -1
i doubt it was monotheism as we clearly know polytheism was rife. it is probably more of a simple ancestor story; monarchs being descended from gods e.g beli mawr, woden etc or even something like Adam from xtian myth. i think there is a risk of looking too deeply and reading too much into it.
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Post by deiniol on Feb 10, 2011 20:03:56 GMT -1
Just to muddy the water a little here, I seem to recall reading that Caesar stated the Gauls claimed descent from Dis Pater as a group, with the druids being the section of their group being the geneological descendants. No idea where you've got this from. The relevant mention in Caesar's De Bello Gallico: Galli se omnes ab Dite patre prognatos praedicant idque ab druidibus proditum dicunt.And my translation: The Gauls all say that they are descended from Dis Pater, and say that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids.I.e. all the Gauls claim descent from Dis Pater. To a first century Gaul, descent is descent: one can't say that the druids were considered to be "genetic" descendants to a greater degree than the rest of the Gauls. We don't even know if "the druids" formed a separate "ethnic group" within Celtia (Carr-Gomm's fantasizing aside), nor even if the office was hereditary. And, as we've discussed before, the actual evidence really doesn't indicate any kind of "druidic monotheism". I keep thinking about that P.I.E (or is it I.E? ) thing about the twins (my understanding is at a very basic level though! Now reading Deep Ancestors...) regarding one twin becoming the Lord of the dead. Is it right that the other twin becomes the first King? If Nodens is found as Nuada does that make Nodens the first King and a likely candidate for the twin of the lord of the dead? I don't think there's any echo of this in Irish myth is there? I'm simply postulating on the basis of what I've read (or think I've read - my memory isn't what it used to be after having kids!) of the I.E twins. Myths change and belief systems evolve. One thing which one has to be careful of in reconstructionism is assuming that the proto-religion (as it were) can simply be projected forwards, that a structure reconstruced for PIE culture must have occurred in all descendant traditions. (The gods know I've been guilty of this myself at times.) We know that this is simply not true: sometimes elements of myths are lost, leaving only remnants behind. While I think it's likely (but not certain!) that Sucellos is indeed a Celtic reflex of PIE *Yemos, I wouldn't neccessarily say that there has to be an accompanying twin. However, the link between *Yemos and Sucellos could be entirely spurious: it's a neat little explanation for the name, but my analysis could be wrong here (I've certainly not seen it echoed in writings by "proper" academics: the soundchanges fit, and it could just be that nobody's noticed it before. Happens all the time.) I'm certain that the Dagda, Sucellos and Arawn are linked, and beyond the Celtic world I think the closest correspondences are with Pluto and Dis Pater. The myths of this deity could well have arisen when the proto-Greeks, proto-Italics and proto-Celts were living in geographical proximity in the northern Balkans and simply be an isogloss shared by these three having nothing to do with *Yemos or the Twin Myth. Certainly, the Roman Remus (who is definitely a reflex of PIE *Yemos) seems to have little or no overlap with Dis Pater, or indeed any other deity. tl;dr: I could be dead wrong. It's happened before.
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Post by nellie on Feb 10, 2011 20:27:43 GMT -1
On a bit of a tangent - if the myth changes, does the deity? For example, as you say if a twin gets lost along the way, or a new god overthrows and replaces and old one? What does that mean to us in the context of trying to understand and form relationships/experience a deity? If Sucellos had a twin once upon a time but at some point this was lost or changed, if the gods are real entities (as personally I believe they are) what then of this twin? The story gets lost but what about the actuality of the deity? Does my question make any sense? :S
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Post by deiniol on Feb 10, 2011 20:41:06 GMT -1
Ye gods! That's one hell of a question! One which certainly deserves its own thread in the "Theological conjecture" section. Do you want to make the thread, or shall I?
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Post by nellie on Feb 11, 2011 6:06:51 GMT -1
Oh please do start a new thread To be honest you would probably phrase it better than i could !!
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Post by nellie on Feb 14, 2011 17:33:07 GMT -1
erm... i might be about to say something silly...
Is it possible that Sucellos could have absorbed both functions? As in he is 'the well struck one' but also the 'good striker'? hence the club. A sort of self-secrifice??
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 23:45:23 GMT -1
I'm certain that the Dagda, Sucellos and Arawn are linked, and beyond the Celtic world I think the closest correspondences are with Pluto and Dis Pater. On the Dagda and Sucellos I am in absolute agreement; but I haven't run into this idea of a connection to Arawn, who has always puzzled me. Can you elaborate as to how he's connected to them? Because I've recently been bothered by the lack of an obvious Sucellos/the Dagda figure in the Mabinogi and related works.
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