Post by Lee on Sept 19, 2010 20:47:53 GMT -1
Lee:
i am only putting this here as i have been meaning to for a few days but havent got my arse in gear to do so, hopefully now i have at least it will provide the impetus to do more. really this boils down to a discussion on matters such as abortion, capital punishment and also by extent vegetarianism etc. it will probably become a matter of ethics and morality too.
Potia:
Some of that is highly emotive stuff. I'll be interested to see what you come up with to start things off with
Littleraven:
Eek, each of those is worthy of a thread in itself I believe.
Lee:
righty ho then, lets get this going.
so, is life 'sacred'? in the sense that it worthy of respect and consideration then yes. every living thing is worthy of respect, its existence is as unlikely and and flukey as my own. i am no more special than an animal or plant in my opinion. i am just another living thing on this earth.
is life some great and holy thing which should be preserved at all cost? - perhaps the more fluffy pagan interpretation of sacred - yes and no. yes because of the respect that living things are due and no because killing is neccessitated at times.
i will admit that when it comes to human lives then things get a bit skewed because we have an emotional and mental attachment to our own kind, also we can think of another person in emotional terms: someone's son or mother etc.
Capital Punishment
i do think there are some people who through thier own actions are deserving of removal from society. our society needs to function within certain parameters which are - by society - considered as being "the rules", without them things will fall apart. when someone breaks those rules they are punished, whether by fines or incarceration. i think that much of the time, the individuals who tend to be considered so evil as to warrant death tend to be judged on an emotional basis and so the response can often be inflated, imagine for instance if maddie McCann was found and her abductor caught, or the response to the Matthews woman. i become dubious about capital punishment because there is the potential for mistakes or worse deliberate set ups. in some cases the police are under intense pressure to catch someone and bring them to justice - it has happened in the past where innocent people are convicted of terrible crimes (the case of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Kiszko spring to mind) and less than honurable behaviour wins out. the smallest shred of risk of killintg an innocent man or woman is the biggest problem i have with execution. however, i can see that perhaps a situation where voluntary execution is used. if someone is convicted with the full weight of evidence, say DNA, witness, forensic etc etc then that person is offered either a rest-of-life term in jail or they can undergo a humane means of ending thier life. even then i guess there could be problems.
Abortion
as a chap this is one i can never fully answer, it is a whole realm of experience i will never undergo. i do however recognise that the prime concern if for the person alive; the mother and that of the foetus is secondary. there will be many reasons why it just simply isnt suitable for the baby to be born, whether through genetic or developmental abnormalities, rape victims or simply reasons of the potential parent not being in a position to bring a child into the world. ultimately i do think the choice is with the mother and every provision should be made for her if she opts for a termination.
Euthanasia
death is part of life, if someone is terminally ill to the point where they no longer have a quality of life then they should if they so choose be given provision to end thier own life at a time of thier choosing. the choice of a dignified ending shoudl be there for everyone who wishes to take the option.
Megli:
Personally - aside from the the very legitimate concerns raised by Lee about miscarriages of justice - I can't find any strong personal objection to capital punishment for a small number of especially egregious crimes (child rape/murder, mass killings). But, on the other hand, I worry that the legitimacy of such punishment would depend on its status as a terrible extreme in a society with a very strong regard for the sanctity of life. Thus I'm left with the paradox that perhaps the only society that could legitimately employ capital punishment is a society that would always choose not to.
Part of me however is cool enough to not see much point keeping mass-murdering psychopaths (of whom there are a miniscule number: my grandfather was a psychiatrist who worked with a number of the very worst in the British prison system) fed and watered at taxpayers' expense.
Speaking metaphysically, I'm not at all sure that it's not possible to murder your own soul, or that a tiny proportion of people may be born without one. Or in the langauge of psychology, certain people, almost always males, seem simply not to develop a conscience, probably as a result of a genetic predisposition coupled with a severely stunted early life. I used to be extremely unwilling to contemplate the idea that there might be evil spiritual beings which could possess a human who had rendered themselves empty in this way: now I'm genuinely not so sure, and uncomfortably so - I can't see any good reason why not, and human history furnishes us with plenty of possible instances. Humans genuinely are capable of the most hideous, horrific acts (which I don't need to rehearse here) and I don't believe that such acts can necessarily be explained merely by socio-historical causes and outward pressures, though these are clearly important.
Potia:
Capital punishment
My major concern against using this is that our justice system has a way of making mistakes and sometimes (less often than it used to I think) they can be big mistakes. On the other hand I don't like the fact that a pretty hefty amount of our taxes is going to feed, clothe and shelter some of our socieities worst members where others sometimes through no fault of their own are homeless and hungry. I think exile would be a better option - surely there are still places, islands where we could deposit such folk with some training in survival and some basic equipment and let them work on survival themselves. It would probably be cheaper to monitor such a facility from a geo-synch satellite than it is to feed, clothe and shelter them as we do now. It's also possible to retrieve someone exiled if a mistake is made. And then life exile can mean life and not out in 15 years for good behavior!
Abortion
I think one of the key aspects to this is often the argument about survivability of the foetus. To me personally though it's about sacredness of life and when life begins. I personally believe life begins at conception, it may not be a life capable of independant existence but it's still a life and to abort is to take that life. BUT saying that I am also firmly of the belief that abortion must be available legally (it will only go underground otherwise) and with advice and support given for the woman who must ultimately make that decision. As you say Lee there are many reasons and it is not for me to make judgements on another person who has made or is making that choice (after all we all take life of some sort in order to live). I can only say that for myself it is not something I could do unless there was a very stong medical reason why I had to.
Euthanasia
Another very emotive subject for many but yes I agree that fundamentally it should be down to the individual's choice whether or not to end their life. I would want to see that individual get support and advice about the options available to them and to be able to talk it through with their loved ones with some sort of safeguards in place to protect from too much family pressure about a decision. It's a tough one.
Craig:
Capital Punishment
As I get older I see capital punishment for a range of crimes as a practical solution. The quality of proof and justice needs to be carefully defined but if it was I would support it. Exile worked when the wolrd was mostly empty and one's place in your family or tribe was the most important thin g in a person's life. Now it isn't.
Reconviction rates show that we cannot effectively rehabilitate those offenders that commit the sort of heinous crimes that would attract a death sentence. Thus capital punishment is reasonable.
Abortion
This really relies on the belief in when consciousness begins. Conception? Six weeks, twelve weeks, twenty-six weeks? Once conscious it becomes hard to argue that a child need die to meet the social or mental health needs of the mother. We need more research on this to inform this debate.
Euthanasia
I watched my father die a long and agonising death from Alzheimers, and related conditions. There were times he begged for death. I will not die like that and society should support my choices. There are people who are being forced to to choose to die early simply to protect their loved ones from prosecution as accessories to suicide.
This is one of the hangovers from our christianised judicial system that is long overdue a serious revisiting. Yes, various safeguards have to be put in place, but one should be able to choose the manner and time of one's own death.
Craig
i am only putting this here as i have been meaning to for a few days but havent got my arse in gear to do so, hopefully now i have at least it will provide the impetus to do more. really this boils down to a discussion on matters such as abortion, capital punishment and also by extent vegetarianism etc. it will probably become a matter of ethics and morality too.
Potia:
Some of that is highly emotive stuff. I'll be interested to see what you come up with to start things off with
Littleraven:
Eek, each of those is worthy of a thread in itself I believe.
Lee:
righty ho then, lets get this going.
so, is life 'sacred'? in the sense that it worthy of respect and consideration then yes. every living thing is worthy of respect, its existence is as unlikely and and flukey as my own. i am no more special than an animal or plant in my opinion. i am just another living thing on this earth.
is life some great and holy thing which should be preserved at all cost? - perhaps the more fluffy pagan interpretation of sacred - yes and no. yes because of the respect that living things are due and no because killing is neccessitated at times.
i will admit that when it comes to human lives then things get a bit skewed because we have an emotional and mental attachment to our own kind, also we can think of another person in emotional terms: someone's son or mother etc.
Capital Punishment
i do think there are some people who through thier own actions are deserving of removal from society. our society needs to function within certain parameters which are - by society - considered as being "the rules", without them things will fall apart. when someone breaks those rules they are punished, whether by fines or incarceration. i think that much of the time, the individuals who tend to be considered so evil as to warrant death tend to be judged on an emotional basis and so the response can often be inflated, imagine for instance if maddie McCann was found and her abductor caught, or the response to the Matthews woman. i become dubious about capital punishment because there is the potential for mistakes or worse deliberate set ups. in some cases the police are under intense pressure to catch someone and bring them to justice - it has happened in the past where innocent people are convicted of terrible crimes (the case of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Kiszko spring to mind) and less than honurable behaviour wins out. the smallest shred of risk of killintg an innocent man or woman is the biggest problem i have with execution. however, i can see that perhaps a situation where voluntary execution is used. if someone is convicted with the full weight of evidence, say DNA, witness, forensic etc etc then that person is offered either a rest-of-life term in jail or they can undergo a humane means of ending thier life. even then i guess there could be problems.
Abortion
as a chap this is one i can never fully answer, it is a whole realm of experience i will never undergo. i do however recognise that the prime concern if for the person alive; the mother and that of the foetus is secondary. there will be many reasons why it just simply isnt suitable for the baby to be born, whether through genetic or developmental abnormalities, rape victims or simply reasons of the potential parent not being in a position to bring a child into the world. ultimately i do think the choice is with the mother and every provision should be made for her if she opts for a termination.
Euthanasia
death is part of life, if someone is terminally ill to the point where they no longer have a quality of life then they should if they so choose be given provision to end thier own life at a time of thier choosing. the choice of a dignified ending shoudl be there for everyone who wishes to take the option.
Megli:
Personally - aside from the the very legitimate concerns raised by Lee about miscarriages of justice - I can't find any strong personal objection to capital punishment for a small number of especially egregious crimes (child rape/murder, mass killings). But, on the other hand, I worry that the legitimacy of such punishment would depend on its status as a terrible extreme in a society with a very strong regard for the sanctity of life. Thus I'm left with the paradox that perhaps the only society that could legitimately employ capital punishment is a society that would always choose not to.
Part of me however is cool enough to not see much point keeping mass-murdering psychopaths (of whom there are a miniscule number: my grandfather was a psychiatrist who worked with a number of the very worst in the British prison system) fed and watered at taxpayers' expense.
Speaking metaphysically, I'm not at all sure that it's not possible to murder your own soul, or that a tiny proportion of people may be born without one. Or in the langauge of psychology, certain people, almost always males, seem simply not to develop a conscience, probably as a result of a genetic predisposition coupled with a severely stunted early life. I used to be extremely unwilling to contemplate the idea that there might be evil spiritual beings which could possess a human who had rendered themselves empty in this way: now I'm genuinely not so sure, and uncomfortably so - I can't see any good reason why not, and human history furnishes us with plenty of possible instances. Humans genuinely are capable of the most hideous, horrific acts (which I don't need to rehearse here) and I don't believe that such acts can necessarily be explained merely by socio-historical causes and outward pressures, though these are clearly important.
Potia:
Capital punishment
My major concern against using this is that our justice system has a way of making mistakes and sometimes (less often than it used to I think) they can be big mistakes. On the other hand I don't like the fact that a pretty hefty amount of our taxes is going to feed, clothe and shelter some of our socieities worst members where others sometimes through no fault of their own are homeless and hungry. I think exile would be a better option - surely there are still places, islands where we could deposit such folk with some training in survival and some basic equipment and let them work on survival themselves. It would probably be cheaper to monitor such a facility from a geo-synch satellite than it is to feed, clothe and shelter them as we do now. It's also possible to retrieve someone exiled if a mistake is made. And then life exile can mean life and not out in 15 years for good behavior!
Abortion
I think one of the key aspects to this is often the argument about survivability of the foetus. To me personally though it's about sacredness of life and when life begins. I personally believe life begins at conception, it may not be a life capable of independant existence but it's still a life and to abort is to take that life. BUT saying that I am also firmly of the belief that abortion must be available legally (it will only go underground otherwise) and with advice and support given for the woman who must ultimately make that decision. As you say Lee there are many reasons and it is not for me to make judgements on another person who has made or is making that choice (after all we all take life of some sort in order to live). I can only say that for myself it is not something I could do unless there was a very stong medical reason why I had to.
Euthanasia
Another very emotive subject for many but yes I agree that fundamentally it should be down to the individual's choice whether or not to end their life. I would want to see that individual get support and advice about the options available to them and to be able to talk it through with their loved ones with some sort of safeguards in place to protect from too much family pressure about a decision. It's a tough one.
Craig:
Capital Punishment
As I get older I see capital punishment for a range of crimes as a practical solution. The quality of proof and justice needs to be carefully defined but if it was I would support it. Exile worked when the wolrd was mostly empty and one's place in your family or tribe was the most important thin g in a person's life. Now it isn't.
Reconviction rates show that we cannot effectively rehabilitate those offenders that commit the sort of heinous crimes that would attract a death sentence. Thus capital punishment is reasonable.
Abortion
This really relies on the belief in when consciousness begins. Conception? Six weeks, twelve weeks, twenty-six weeks? Once conscious it becomes hard to argue that a child need die to meet the social or mental health needs of the mother. We need more research on this to inform this debate.
Euthanasia
I watched my father die a long and agonising death from Alzheimers, and related conditions. There were times he begged for death. I will not die like that and society should support my choices. There are people who are being forced to to choose to die early simply to protect their loved ones from prosecution as accessories to suicide.
This is one of the hangovers from our christianised judicial system that is long overdue a serious revisiting. Yes, various safeguards have to be put in place, but one should be able to choose the manner and time of one's own death.
Craig