Post by Lee on Sept 19, 2010 21:13:37 GMT -1
Deiniol:
One of the best-studied aspects of Celtic mythology is the "sovreignty complex", with the most prominent of the Celtic goddesses described as "Goddess of Sovreignty": Rhiannon, Epona, Macha etc have all been described as such. But, given that we're not a sovreign tribe, what does "sovreignty" mean to us? I've been having a few thoughts about this, but I'd like to get your opinions first.
Heron:
There's an interesting article by Catherine McKenna about this with regard to Rhiannon. This also raises interesting comments about the 'sovereign' status of Manawydan in the Third Branch. But sovereignty for us? If the earlier idea was that the leader of the tribe had to be 'wedded' to the Goddess, how we would translate that into our own terms is a good question to ask. We might think it difficult to accommodate to a democratic society in wider terms even if we could see a way of incorporating it into a rite.
I have taken part in rites in the past where the principle of Goddess & God was enacted in a way that acknowledged this. But only for the space of the rite. Are you asking how we could make this socially relevant as part of a group structure, or how it could be ritually enacted?
Potia:
Sovereignty for me has a few different aspects and to me it is something tied to different deities too.
There is sovereignty of Land, a responsibility and belongingness if you will to a particular stretch of land. Then there is sovereignty of tribe except that many of us can be members of a few different tribes, family, work, faith community and responsibilities in these areas can vary. Then there's a sense of personal sovereignty, of responsibility and honesty to self.
I guess I see sovereignty as more to do with honesty, responsibility and service to self, land and others more than anything else
Deiniol:
OK, I did say that I have some thoughts on this topic. They are still rather un-formed, but I thought I'd share them nevertheless.
The Sovereignty Goddess in Celtic myth does not actually seem to be intimately connected with the tribe: rather she represents the land over which the tribe is sovreign. Her granting of the gift of sovereignty to the tribe is generally by means of a marriage to the leader of the tribe, which does fit in rather well with what we know of Indo-European goddesses in general: rather than being actors, the Indo-European peoples saw their goddesses as being causes of action, "sources of power", if you will. Conferring this power to a (male) actor generally took the form of marriage: the parallels to Shakti in later Hinduism should be obvious here.
Therefore it seems to me that "sovereignty" is not an inherent power or attribute of a tribe: it has to be granted by its proper owner. Without the sovereignty, the tribe has no right to live on the land: it is not theirs to possess or use or rule over. Therefore, to me, "sovereignty" could be defined as "the gift of place". I am not a Brython because I was born in these islands, nor because my ancestors have lived here for generations. That's not important. I belong to Britain, and Britain belongs to me, because the sovreignty goddess allows it: it is solely by her grace (to use the Christian term) that I can interact with the land. Membership of the tribe itself may be under the purview of Toutatis, but being part of the wider cosmos is under the Sovereignty Goddess' aegis. It's this reasoning that makes me somewhat uneasy with Lee's referring to Rigantona as a goddess of the tribe: in my understanding at least, she isn't a goddess of the tribe, but the goddess who permits the tribe to live on her land.
EDIT: Also faintly embarrassed that I consistently misspelt "sovereignty" in the first post. As a French student, I should really know better!
Lee:
i cant believe i didnt spot this earlier
Just to quickly address the point about Rigantona and the tribe - this one effectively - i think it might be just my way with words and not being as clear as i would like. She was the 'matron' of the tribe as i understand it from the inception of brython - as she embodied these islands and the land which brython was intending to be focussed on. this was before i became involved. as see it, she is the foundation upon which brython is built; 'She' being the land itself as it were.
Sovereignty; to me now in this modern context it is the proper, responsible and agreed 'contract' for want of a better word between the people and the land. the marriage between king and the land was the formal joining if you like; where the spokesman on behalf of the tribe made the agreement with the embodiment of the land itself i.e the goddess. with it there is a way of living on the land.
as a dispersed group of people who meet occassinally then these commitment to live in the proper way aare still there, it is just that we must be aware of them on an individual basis and take individual responsibility.
i can forsee a time in the not too distant future where we could have a group ritual of sorts where this bond of tribe and land is reforged, where sovereignty is acknowledged and renewed on an annual or biannual basis.
One of the best-studied aspects of Celtic mythology is the "sovreignty complex", with the most prominent of the Celtic goddesses described as "Goddess of Sovreignty": Rhiannon, Epona, Macha etc have all been described as such. But, given that we're not a sovreign tribe, what does "sovreignty" mean to us? I've been having a few thoughts about this, but I'd like to get your opinions first.
Heron:
There's an interesting article by Catherine McKenna about this with regard to Rhiannon. This also raises interesting comments about the 'sovereign' status of Manawydan in the Third Branch. But sovereignty for us? If the earlier idea was that the leader of the tribe had to be 'wedded' to the Goddess, how we would translate that into our own terms is a good question to ask. We might think it difficult to accommodate to a democratic society in wider terms even if we could see a way of incorporating it into a rite.
I have taken part in rites in the past where the principle of Goddess & God was enacted in a way that acknowledged this. But only for the space of the rite. Are you asking how we could make this socially relevant as part of a group structure, or how it could be ritually enacted?
Potia:
Sovereignty for me has a few different aspects and to me it is something tied to different deities too.
There is sovereignty of Land, a responsibility and belongingness if you will to a particular stretch of land. Then there is sovereignty of tribe except that many of us can be members of a few different tribes, family, work, faith community and responsibilities in these areas can vary. Then there's a sense of personal sovereignty, of responsibility and honesty to self.
I guess I see sovereignty as more to do with honesty, responsibility and service to self, land and others more than anything else
Deiniol:
OK, I did say that I have some thoughts on this topic. They are still rather un-formed, but I thought I'd share them nevertheless.
The Sovereignty Goddess in Celtic myth does not actually seem to be intimately connected with the tribe: rather she represents the land over which the tribe is sovreign. Her granting of the gift of sovereignty to the tribe is generally by means of a marriage to the leader of the tribe, which does fit in rather well with what we know of Indo-European goddesses in general: rather than being actors, the Indo-European peoples saw their goddesses as being causes of action, "sources of power", if you will. Conferring this power to a (male) actor generally took the form of marriage: the parallels to Shakti in later Hinduism should be obvious here.
Therefore it seems to me that "sovereignty" is not an inherent power or attribute of a tribe: it has to be granted by its proper owner. Without the sovereignty, the tribe has no right to live on the land: it is not theirs to possess or use or rule over. Therefore, to me, "sovereignty" could be defined as "the gift of place". I am not a Brython because I was born in these islands, nor because my ancestors have lived here for generations. That's not important. I belong to Britain, and Britain belongs to me, because the sovreignty goddess allows it: it is solely by her grace (to use the Christian term) that I can interact with the land. Membership of the tribe itself may be under the purview of Toutatis, but being part of the wider cosmos is under the Sovereignty Goddess' aegis. It's this reasoning that makes me somewhat uneasy with Lee's referring to Rigantona as a goddess of the tribe: in my understanding at least, she isn't a goddess of the tribe, but the goddess who permits the tribe to live on her land.
EDIT: Also faintly embarrassed that I consistently misspelt "sovereignty" in the first post. As a French student, I should really know better!
Lee:
i cant believe i didnt spot this earlier
Just to quickly address the point about Rigantona and the tribe - this one effectively - i think it might be just my way with words and not being as clear as i would like. She was the 'matron' of the tribe as i understand it from the inception of brython - as she embodied these islands and the land which brython was intending to be focussed on. this was before i became involved. as see it, she is the foundation upon which brython is built; 'She' being the land itself as it were.
Sovereignty; to me now in this modern context it is the proper, responsible and agreed 'contract' for want of a better word between the people and the land. the marriage between king and the land was the formal joining if you like; where the spokesman on behalf of the tribe made the agreement with the embodiment of the land itself i.e the goddess. with it there is a way of living on the land.
as a dispersed group of people who meet occassinally then these commitment to live in the proper way aare still there, it is just that we must be aware of them on an individual basis and take individual responsibility.
i can forsee a time in the not too distant future where we could have a group ritual of sorts where this bond of tribe and land is reforged, where sovereignty is acknowledged and renewed on an annual or biannual basis.