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Post by Brochfael on Sept 20, 2010 16:21:37 GMT -1
Please feel free to reinterpret Fairy as faery or fey or however you feel it shold be rendered.  What constitutes a Fairy mound? Does it always have an archaeological significance and if so does it have to be prehistoric or a burial site? How should fairly mounds be treated? What might be the consequences if they are not treated correctly? Is it possible to undertake and archaeological examination of a fairy mound without causing problems and if so how? How might a sceptic on matters Fairy identify a fairy mound? Is reverence for Fairies and fairy mounds a purely Pagan belief? How widespread might such beliefs be? |
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Post by Lee on Sept 22, 2010 9:54:18 GMT -1
my take on it is that these mounds are generally barrows and as such archaeological features. im sure the 'faery' part was added later, in the same way that many stories arose of how the Devil for some reason or other got busy with landscape gardening and installed some new features in the landscape.
the landscape came first.
i would say that they should be dug and learned from where appropriate and as so often the primary respect should be to the archaeology. that in itself ensures that and local spirits if they are attached to it will be treated in an appropriate way too.
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Post by Francis on Sept 22, 2010 18:25:03 GMT -1
Hi Brochfael
In the higher lands of North Wales, particularly West of the Conwy, it's not so much faery mounds as faery trees and lakes which are the major features in the landscape associated with faeries.
All the individual Faery Trees that I'm aware of (those on the Carneddau, Glyderau and the Snowdon Massif itself) are either hawthorn, rowan or female hollies - their isolation and the bearing of red berries seems to be important, but I don't know why - though in North West Wales Y Tylwyth Teg are typically dressed in Red not Green.
In shepherding circles the stories centre around magical gifts of special sheep usually given following an incident of entertaining faeries whilst unaware of the true nature of the guests, the gifted special sheep usually appear out of the lakes or tethered to a Faery Tree. The other main type of story is very similar to the human changling legends - with good lambs being stolen from their mother ewes and replaced with sickly lambs that don't grow and cause problems- usually as a result of some slight to the faery folk, lakes or trees.
You ask;
"Is reverence for Fairies and fairy mounds a purely Pagan belief?"
Obviously the christian folk stories of angels have become very entwined with that of faeries,possibly to allow survival of these stories through the horror of chapel culture. (Faeries seen as fallen angels, or more specifically the blameless offspring of fallen angels though still denied entry to paradise by the stain of the First Angelic Fall on their souls.) I think it would be interesting to speculate that this extends beyond angels to include the Nephilim as Giants/heroes/anti-heroes.
I've gone off at a tangent, as usual, but as I say Faery Mounds aren't really part of the culture of North West Wales - burial mounds often have stories of ghosts associated with them but don't typically have associations with faeries.
"How widespread might such beliefs be?"
This is a tricky one. Not many farmers would admit to such a belief, but you'd struggle to find one who would in any way damage a recognised Faery Tree. I would suggest that within the farming communities of North Wales the belief in Faeries became an important part of the folk Catholicism of this area and persisted until fairly recently- as opposed to the chapel culture of the quarrying communities, who gave up any form of celebration and hope for joy in this life, in return for a promise from a very hard god of paradise in the next - pretty much the only coping strategy open to them given the hopeless horror and drudgery of their lives.
(My oppinion is that once chapel culture became associated with welsh nationalism the folk catholicism of the farming communities gave way, at a public level at least, to the dominating chapel culture - I couldn't possibly defend this hypothesis under rigourous questioning at the moment!)
Probably the biggest group of overt Faery believers as a form of self-acknowledged/self-identified pagan practice would be the communities of english "new-agey" incomers on the Lleyn.
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Post by arth_frown on Sept 24, 2010 6:43:01 GMT -1
Probably the biggest group of overt Faery believers as a form of self-acknowledged/self-identified pagan practice would be the communities of english "new-agey" incomers on the Lleyn. Yes, there seem to be a thought that fairies only live in 'celtic' lands i.e Cornwall, Wales, Scotland and Isle of Man. I blame the tourist board myself. |
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Post by dreamguardian on Sept 25, 2010 12:14:53 GMT -1
... but as I say Faery Mounds aren't really part of the culture of North West Wales - burial mounds often have stories of ghosts associated with them but don't typically have associations with faeries. I was under the impression that faeries & ghosts are the one & same thing, just different titles. The Faery mounds are possibly burial mounds & certain landscape features have been inhabited by such spirits in trees, lakes etc The new aget faery brigade have warped the view of faeries |
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Post by redraven on Sept 25, 2010 15:23:47 GMT -1
Yes, there seem to be a thought that fairies only live in 'celtic' lands i.e Cornwall, Wales, Scotland and Isle of Man. I blame the tourist board myself. Ronald Hutton, no less, would disagree with that statement. What differs is the interpretation of how they interact with humans, with them being more malevolent the further west in the UK you go. RR |
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Post by redraven on Sept 25, 2010 15:38:52 GMT -1
I was under the impression that faeries & ghosts are the one & same thing, just different titles. It's interesting that DG has used the later spelling of fairy here, one that stems from the late 70's as I know Broch will have used the earlier spelling quite deliberately. The Faery mounds are possibly burial mounds & certain landscape features have been inhabited by such spirits in trees, lakes etc Yes, it's easy to place the likes of long barrows, though I would suspect round barrows to best encapsulate the "traditional" interpretation of a fairy mound, into the picture here. The early mesolithic and neolithic monuments would have been more visible in the landscapes the further back chronologically we go. The lack of anthropormorphic representation may have led many to consider that these spirits were of a communal nature, placing them into the earlier ancestral understandings of a collective of spirit beings. RR |
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Post by Heron on Sept 26, 2010 18:51:23 GMT -1
I was under the impression that faeries & ghosts are the one & same thing, just different titles. It's interesting that DG has used the later spelling of fairy here, one that stems from the late 70's as I know Broch will have used the earlier spelling quite deliberately. As it was used by the Elizabethan poet Edmund Spenser I presume you mean the 1570's? In its modern usage I think it is usually employed to differentiate between tiny creatures with wings in children's books and serious beings from the Otherworld. By J R R Tolkien for instance. |
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Post by redraven on Sept 27, 2010 8:10:41 GMT -1
Yes, I was thinking of the modern usage. It's traditional spelling was the one Broch has used and I know why he has.
RR
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Post by dreamguardian on Sept 27, 2010 8:37:53 GMT -1
... In its modern usage I think it is usually employed to differentiate between tiny creatures with wings in children's books and serious beings from the Otherworld. By J R R Tolkien for instance. I started a thread when I was a baby CF member because of such a blurred view. There may be a few snippets on it: caerfeddwyd.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=discussion&thread=1159&page=1I know where this is all leading as Broch & I had a detailed chat recently on such matters. Broch needs loads of info & views as it's particulary important & rellevent to Brython as well as pagans sympathise with us. |
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Post by potia on Sept 27, 2010 9:58:44 GMT -1
Please feel free to reinterpret Fairy as faery or fey or however you feel it shold be rendered. What constitutes a Fairy mound? Does it always have an archaeological significance and if so does it have to be prehistoric or a burial site? How should fairly mounds be treated? What might be the consequences if they are not treated correctly? Is it possible to undertake and archaeological examination of a fairy mound without causing problems and if so how? How might a sceptic on matters Fairy identify a fairy mound? Is reverence for Fairies and fairy mounds a purely Pagan belief? How widespread might such beliefs be? Lots of questions and I don't have answers for all of them. I'm not sure what makes a mound a fairly mound or how you might go about identifying it other than by local lore. Can such a feature be examined without causing problems? Probably but I think you'd first need to consult with locals. If there was a strong belief that uncanny things happened there and in the local area if the place was disturbed then I think precautions of some kind would need to be taken. Th most obvious would be that things get put back neatly, another might be asking a shamanic practitioner to communicate with teh local spirits/fey/fairy folk to explain why the examination was taking place and what was hoped to be gained from it and to ask permission from the residents. In other words the same sort of thing as probably takes place with private landowners. Are such beliefs purely pagan? I don't think so. I think there's a lot of new agey types that believe these things yet wouldn't describe themselves as pagan. I think there have also been and probably still are plenty of Chrisitans who believe in fairy folk too. Not sure which other faiths also have similar beliefs. |
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Post by dreamguardian on Sept 27, 2010 10:15:32 GMT -1
... another might be asking a shamanic practitioner to communicate with teh local spirits/fey/fairy folk to explain why the examination was taking place and what was hoped to be gained from it and to ask permission from the residents. Sorry to be so negative, Potia but... And this is where I get really tetchy, but who is a qualified shaman in the UK? There are many who profess to be but lets face it, shamanism hasn't been a western thing for centuries - If at all! It's a concept, once again stolen from other cultures to be sold as workshops or ego based delusions for newagers. |
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Post by potia on Sept 27, 2010 11:52:17 GMT -1
... another might be asking a shamanic practitioner to communicate with teh local spirits/fey/fairy folk to explain why the examination was taking place and what was hoped to be gained from it and to ask permission from the residents. Sorry to be so negative, Potia but... And this is where I get really tetchy, but who is a qualified shaman in the UK? There are many who profess to be but lets face it, shamanism hasn't been a western thing for centuries - If at all! It's a concept, once again stolen from other cultures to be sold as workshops or ego based delusions for newagers. Quite alright DG, I know what you mean and you'll notice I didn't actually say call in a shaman To try and be more specific though there are those that use shamanic style techniques as part of their spiritual practice. It may be that such a person, if genuine and with the right sort of expereince, might be able to assist in communicating with spirits/fey/fairy that live in a mound. This need not be someone who calls themselves a shaman. For the more skeptical this may well seem rather touchy-feely and a waste of time and possibly money if such a person charges for their services but if it helps the locals feel better about what is taking place then it may be worth it. Personally I think treating the area with respect, perhaps explaining what is happening out loud to anyone/thig that might want to listen, and ensuring that when things are finished the area is put back to as near its previous condition as possible may be as much as anyone could realistically do. |
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Post by Brochfael on Sept 27, 2010 14:58:27 GMT -1
I know Broch will have used the earlier spelling quite deliberately. Well Perhaps less so than you may think. I prefer the older spelling on some semi-instinctive feeling that it may be more authentic and perhaps also on a reluctance to let Victorian 'flower fairy' fantasists completely own the word under that spelling. |
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Post by redraven on Sept 27, 2010 18:48:36 GMT -1
Well Perhaps less so than you may think. I prefer the older spelling on some semi-instinctive feeling that it may be more authentic and perhaps also on a reluctance to let Victorian 'flower fairy' fantasists completely own the word under that spelling. I thought you may have been influenced by a certain talk we both attended. Do you think that there is any mileage in the variance of location specific understandings into the nature of fairies as raised by that same talk? RR |
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